Well it’s really not that simple. I assume you’re referring to things like climate change and privacy concerns and general de-evolution of government.
Just to boil down a very complex subject into a lazy comment:
Let’s take climate change for instance. Do corporations and government do almost nothing to curb climate change? Yes. Do they actively lie to people about climate change? Yes.
Does the public still know that climate change is a real thing? At least some of them.
Do a ridiculous proportion of people still buy gas-guzzling SUVs and plastic water bottles and use plastic bags at the grocery store unnecessarily? Yes.
Do some people have full access to the information to educate themselves very quickly on the science, and yet choose to ignore that and instead actually actively promote what they want to believe instead? Absolutely
The reality is that “blame” is seldom simple and we all carry some amount of responsibility.
Personally I view this as a sliding scale. And while I do take personal responsibility in driving an efficient vehicle and refusing plastic bags and bottles (even though people look at me like some kind of crazy hippie and mock me accordingly), I also refuse to live in a yurt in the forest. When more people move down the scale toward me, it will make it easier for me to move even further down the scale.
Do a ridiculous proportion of people still buy gas-guzzling SUVs and plastic water bottles and use plastic bags at the grocery store unnecessarily? Yes
It’s not that this doesn’t matter, it does. But almost every time it’s mentioned is alongside industrial climate impacts as if they were at all in a similar scale.
They aren’t even close. People doing the ‘well actually’ thing for individual climate impacts are inadvertently being patsies for corporations to continue to deflect scrutiny away from the absolutely ridiculous levels of climate impacts they have. And while consumers are trying to move to metal straws, corporations have basically not even started trying to address low hanging fruit ways to mitigate climate change, let alone anything slightly tricky.
Yes, but expecting corporations to do it on their own is silly. They operate in a competitive environment so game theory should tell us what’s going to usually happen. The laws and regulations exist, and a lot more are needed, but it’s also not as simple because costs of enforcement also range from inexpensive to infeasible. In the end, it’s people making self-interested decisions, whether on behalf of themselves or on behalf of corporations. I don’t know of any easy solutions - my feeling is that those don’t exist - so the best bet is to steer society towards better and more effective politics. More distributed and less concentrated power structures, checks and balances, enforcement, novel, effective, and efficient systems through science based analysis, as well as lots of trials and errors and fast iterative improvements based on rapid feedback loops. In short, the world nowadays moves faster than the current government systems and it’s a losing battle until governing adaptability can increase in speed.
People doing the ‘well actually’ thing for individual climate impacts are inadvertently being patsies for corporations to continue to deflect scrutiny
No one is doing that. I could very easily just say that you’re just doing the opposite. That is, deflecting personal responsibility from individuals and just blaming corporations. It’s very easy to just lean back and blame corporations for your choices but the reality is that they simply couldn’t sell this bullshit if individuals weren’t buying them.
And in the same turn, consumers can’t buy a product that doesn’t exist. Until more environmentally friendly products are on the market made by the producers, consumers don’t have a real choice, abstention is not a viable choice.
I still need food, I require the ability to move those groceries from the shop to my car to my house, but if no one produces an environmentally friendly way to do so then I’m at the mercy of the plastic bags, bottles, containers, and wrapping I’ve been provided.
Just like we couldn’t use unleaded gasoline until they started making unleaded gasoline.
Just like we can’t start using renuable energy until they start making renuable energy.
Just like we can’t recycle our waste because we don’t have the infrastructure to recycle our waste.
Just like we can’t take mass transport that hasn’t been built, or use green energy infrastructure that doesn’t exist, or buy products without plastic that don’t exist.
The idea that there is only two options: do nothing or do 100 %, is a comfort zone. People who argue for personal responsibility argue that everyone should do as much as they can.
And those that argue for corporate and government responsibility do too, with the addition that they are smart enough to recognise personal responsibility isn’t enough and isn’t possible at scale without systemic change.
It’s not that you’re wrong, it’s that you’re wasting your breath preaching to a choir that has additional comprehension.
I require the ability to move those groceries from the shop to my car to my house, but if no one produces an environmentally friendly way to do so then I’m at the mercy of the plastic bags, bottles, containers, and wrapping I’ve been provided.
Bruh have you never heard of reusable bags? Made of cloth? Or even just bringing your plastic bags back to the store?
You’re right about most of these things, but those aren’t the types of things I’m referring to.
Bruh have you heard of packaging? Go buy a packet of chips in something that isn’t plastic, good luck purchasing those and toting them out in your reusable bag with that handful of sour cream, and pocket full of frozen peas.
And those that argue for corporate and government responsibility do the things you are referring to, with the addition that they are smart enough to recognise personal responsibility isn’t enough and isn’t possible at scale without systemic change.
It’s not that you’re wrong, it’s that you’re wasting your breath preaching to a choir that has additional comprehension.
I get your point and it’s fair. Only those with the power to shift opinion can be held responsible in 2023. The consolidation of power and bullhorn should not be taken for granted. People are just people. Trillions are spent into making their decisions for them. You missed the forest for the trees in OPs sentiment imho.
Sorry to say, but many can barely afford rent and the bills, let alone even imagine trying to go out of their way to fix the climate.
Buy an electric car you say? Hell, can’t even afford a new tire for the old car to get to work, you gotta be out of your mind to think poor people can afford to buy a new EV because fOSsiL FUeL bAd…
Yes, clearly fossil fuel is bad, but how you expect the vast number of people living week to week and can barely afford new shoes to buy an EV?
It’s not a choice to live in poverty when the billionaires literally milk most of the population of every penny they can get away with while not even paying their employees a fair living wage.
Sorry to say, but many can barely afford rent and the bills, let alone even imagine trying to go out of their way to fix the climate.
There are many things you can do to “fix the climate” while not spending more money. Often times it even costs less money.
Buy an electric car you say?
No I did not say. But you could buy something that’s NOT unnecessarily large and inefficient, and it would SAVE you money, but many poor people still seem to find money for gas guzzling trucks and SUVs.
You could also ride a bike or ebikes or any number of new e-mobility solutions, or even use the 2 feet you were born with (depending on your exact circumstances).
Well it’s really not that simple. I assume you’re referring to things like climate change and privacy concerns and general de-evolution of government.
Just to boil down a very complex subject into a lazy comment:
Let’s take climate change for instance. Do corporations and government do almost nothing to curb climate change? Yes. Do they actively lie to people about climate change? Yes.
Does the public still know that climate change is a real thing? At least some of them.
Do a ridiculous proportion of people still buy gas-guzzling SUVs and plastic water bottles and use plastic bags at the grocery store unnecessarily? Yes.
Do some people have full access to the information to educate themselves very quickly on the science, and yet choose to ignore that and instead actually actively promote what they want to believe instead? Absolutely
The reality is that “blame” is seldom simple and we all carry some amount of responsibility.
Personally I view this as a sliding scale. And while I do take personal responsibility in driving an efficient vehicle and refusing plastic bags and bottles (even though people look at me like some kind of crazy hippie and mock me accordingly), I also refuse to live in a yurt in the forest. When more people move down the scale toward me, it will make it easier for me to move even further down the scale.
It’s not that this doesn’t matter, it does. But almost every time it’s mentioned is alongside industrial climate impacts as if they were at all in a similar scale.
They aren’t even close. People doing the ‘well actually’ thing for individual climate impacts are inadvertently being patsies for corporations to continue to deflect scrutiny away from the absolutely ridiculous levels of climate impacts they have. And while consumers are trying to move to metal straws, corporations have basically not even started trying to address low hanging fruit ways to mitigate climate change, let alone anything slightly tricky.
Yes, but expecting corporations to do it on their own is silly. They operate in a competitive environment so game theory should tell us what’s going to usually happen. The laws and regulations exist, and a lot more are needed, but it’s also not as simple because costs of enforcement also range from inexpensive to infeasible. In the end, it’s people making self-interested decisions, whether on behalf of themselves or on behalf of corporations. I don’t know of any easy solutions - my feeling is that those don’t exist - so the best bet is to steer society towards better and more effective politics. More distributed and less concentrated power structures, checks and balances, enforcement, novel, effective, and efficient systems through science based analysis, as well as lots of trials and errors and fast iterative improvements based on rapid feedback loops. In short, the world nowadays moves faster than the current government systems and it’s a losing battle until governing adaptability can increase in speed.
What is the “‘well actually’ thing”? Claiming to correct something that’s wrong? Is that not allowed?
No one is doing that. I could very easily just say that you’re just doing the opposite. That is, deflecting personal responsibility from individuals and just blaming corporations. It’s very easy to just lean back and blame corporations for your choices but the reality is that they simply couldn’t sell this bullshit if individuals weren’t buying them.
And in the same turn, consumers can’t buy a product that doesn’t exist. Until more environmentally friendly products are on the market made by the producers, consumers don’t have a real choice, abstention is not a viable choice.
I still need food, I require the ability to move those groceries from the shop to my car to my house, but if no one produces an environmentally friendly way to do so then I’m at the mercy of the plastic bags, bottles, containers, and wrapping I’ve been provided.
Just like we couldn’t use unleaded gasoline until they started making unleaded gasoline.
Just like we can’t start using renuable energy until they start making renuable energy.
Just like we can’t recycle our waste because we don’t have the infrastructure to recycle our waste.
Just like we can’t take mass transport that hasn’t been built, or use green energy infrastructure that doesn’t exist, or buy products without plastic that don’t exist.
The idea that there is only two options: do nothing or do 100 %, is a comfort zone. People who argue for personal responsibility argue that everyone should do as much as they can.
And those that argue for corporate and government responsibility do too, with the addition that they are smart enough to recognise personal responsibility isn’t enough and isn’t possible at scale without systemic change.
It’s not that you’re wrong, it’s that you’re wasting your breath preaching to a choir that has additional comprehension.
Bruh have you never heard of reusable bags? Made of cloth? Or even just bringing your plastic bags back to the store?
You’re right about most of these things, but those aren’t the types of things I’m referring to.
Bruh have you heard of packaging? Go buy a packet of chips in something that isn’t plastic, good luck purchasing those and toting them out in your reusable bag with that handful of sour cream, and pocket full of frozen peas.
And those that argue for corporate and government responsibility do the things you are referring to, with the addition that they are smart enough to recognise personal responsibility isn’t enough and isn’t possible at scale without systemic change.
It’s not that you’re wrong, it’s that you’re wasting your breath preaching to a choir that has additional comprehension.
Except that they clearly don’t, or they wouldn’t say such absurd things.
I get your point and it’s fair. Only those with the power to shift opinion can be held responsible in 2023. The consolidation of power and bullhorn should not be taken for granted. People are just people. Trillions are spent into making their decisions for them. You missed the forest for the trees in OPs sentiment imho.
We all have that power.
I didn’t miss anything, I just disagree.
You do NOT have the power to change minds that e.g. a Koch brother has. That’s not an opinion.
Sorry to say, but many can barely afford rent and the bills, let alone even imagine trying to go out of their way to fix the climate.
Buy an electric car you say? Hell, can’t even afford a new tire for the old car to get to work, you gotta be out of your mind to think poor people can afford to buy a new EV because fOSsiL FUeL bAd…
Yes, clearly fossil fuel is bad, but how you expect the vast number of people living week to week and can barely afford new shoes to buy an EV?
It’s not a choice to live in poverty when the billionaires literally milk most of the population of every penny they can get away with while not even paying their employees a fair living wage.
There are many things you can do to “fix the climate” while not spending more money. Often times it even costs less money.
No I did not say. But you could buy something that’s NOT unnecessarily large and inefficient, and it would SAVE you money, but many poor people still seem to find money for gas guzzling trucks and SUVs.
You could also ride a bike or ebikes or any number of new e-mobility solutions, or even use the 2 feet you were born with (depending on your exact circumstances).