You know, if you use Linux you don’t have to jump through hoops like this (trivial though they may be). Wouldn’t it be nice to not have an adversarial, abusive relationship with your OS?
That’s because like vegans, there is a moral imperative that most ignore or don’t care about, we have a genuine emotional attachment to foss, and because you are ignorant of the topic, you don’t care to listen.
What he said is harmless, true, and there is a moral imperative to say it, and ontop of that it isn’t like a diet, it’s better software that respects you, doesn’t spy on you, and for free and the only downside is a 15 minute install process (and the use of a flash drive). Why do you care enough to fight that?
I’m all for Linux and have been using it for years, but saying a 15min install is the only downside is disingenuous. For many people there are a few programs they rely on that won’t work on Linux, and hardware support and general user-friendliness are still not quite where they should be.
the vast majority of hardware is supported, and as someone who works IT and gives linux to the elderly, I don’t agree at all with the user unfriendliness, provided you use mint and kde.
If your software doesn’t run that does suck, but the vast majority of usecases work perfectly with the breif explanation of “use the app store for any software you need to install.” Do you have any examples of user friendliness issues, or is it just that there are choices to make at all?
“The vast majority” is useless if the hardware someone has doesn’t work, and you usually don’t get official support and warranty from the manufacturer for Linux. There are also some categories like webcams, audio equipment or fingerprint readers where Linux support is still notoriously bad. And even if something mostly works, it’s fairly common for some hardware to have missing features, instabilities or minor issues on Linux. E.g. my mouse works on Linux ofc, but the software to set and edit profiles doesn’t.
Usability issues are mostly cases where you have to fall back to the terminal. An example from my experience would be that trying to upgrade the system from the app store fails half the time, so I have to use the terminal. Another would be a failed boot or graphics issues due to a broken Nvidia driver installation or messed up SELinux policies. It’s all fixable in the terminal, but good luck if you can’t use that.
How much are you willing to bet? I give a hint, there is an open issue from 2016 on their GitHub about supporting the manufacturer of my mouse. And that’s pretty much the point, because on Windows I just get the software with the box and that’s it. Of course it’s closed source and stuff, but it still provides a better experience than no support at all. And that’s just one example, Linux also can’t use the highest available resolution of my webcam, and the fingerprint reader on my laptop has been completely unusable on Linux from day one.
Immutable distros fix most boot issues, in the sense that you can undo a failed change, but that’s about it.
Ofc Windows has its fair share of issues, but it just doesn’t break as much in my experience. Probably because they have orders of magnitude more people working on finding and fixing consumer issues, incl. from 3rd party device and software manufacturers.
I’m sorry, but you’re lying to yourself if you think consumer support is on par with Windows. It’s getting closer and closer every year, but we are not there yet.
You can not agree with OP, but that doesn’t change reality. Linux is a pain to use for a regular user. Linux doesn’t support some programs that people depend on and have learned to use. Those things aren’t an issue for Windows, people don’t need to look around for fixes.
I get it, you like it. But the reality of it is - it’s a niche operating system for home use for a reason.
I don’t agree that it’s a pain for the regular user, I think it’s a pain if you use niche software, or software that’s designed to not run on linux intentionally.
Outside of that, it works perfectly fine. The vast VAST majority of users will not miss any software.
Linux doesn’t support some programs that people depend on and have learned to use.
Weird that Linux can’t run some applications written specifically for Windows. It’s a nitpick, but your sentence should be “some programs don’t support Linux”, because the issue isn’t with the OS, it’s with the developers of the software.
In any case, outside of some specific examples, most Windows software actually does work on Linux thanks to Wine and Proton.
Those things aren’t an issue for Windows, people don’t need to look around for fixes.
Maybe not, but they need to look around for fixes to dozens of other issues that shouldn’t exist. Like getting rid of ads in your OS.
Honestly true. At the very most you have to make certain switches to some software. For elderly people these switches are pretty minor since often they aren’t needing something like industry software for their work and at most will need to switch to like… LibreOffice, OnlyOffice or something of the sort. Not hard. For people in a job that may need design software like any Adobe product, there are
Plenty of alternatives that work pretty well. Main thing is just spending a few days to get used to it and learning the differences. Only big thing I’d say that would be very hard to switch to Linux is if you make Music. Because if you use FL Studio, the closest alternative is LMMS… and it sorta sucks and at times is very uncomfortable to work with. You’d probably have to switch to Ardour or Reaper which would be a pretty massive change… Overall though, those account for a small number of people.
Nobody has forced you to do anything, suggesting better, more respectful software is not force, why bother fighting against a more ethical alternative that respects you?
If linux was a better software, it would have a substantial desktop share. But it doesn’t since it’s the most unintuitive userhating software built by man.
I’ve never seen any OS being shilled like linux, it even beats apple fanboys during its heyday. A free OS that’s constantly pushed down our throats should by all means be a consumers number 1 choice if it was good.
But I guess having to learn 5 million commands to open a folder is bad design, who knew? I have better use for my time than debug drivers and figure out dependencies when W10 sort of works all that out for me in an intuitive fashion.
Are you just typing random letters? Terminal commands are basically programs, like word. There’s thousands of them, just like there’s thousands of programs on windows. And yeah, these programs, or terminal commands can get quirky, but they are also very powerful.
Luckily for you, modern distributions work perfectly fine without ever touching the terminal, so you should be fine if you prefer gui programs.
If you think you need to learn commands to open a folder you didn’t use Linux for the past 20 years. Most things are done now via a graphical environment such as Plasma or GNOME. It’s the more advanced things such as managing system services that are done via a terminal. But normal user really doesn’t have to do these kind of things for normal desktop use.
the annoying stereotype of vegans pushing their diet
Also, vegans actually do something good for the planet instead of just choosing a different OS for their PC. So, maybe acknowledge that to your neighborly vegan next time, instead of telling them a story about how you once met someone who was really pushy about veganism.
Tbf yes. They do something good for the planet. But I wouldn’t say choosing a different OS isn’t good for the planet either. First, you aren’t supporting companies that will burn this planet down without a second thought for a few million dollars. Secondly there are a few things on Linux made to use less electricity than Windows AND the fact it can run on older computers just fine means that there is less of a need for constantly upgrading this creating less computer waste. (Which something I and many others advocate for and a very solid reason to use Linux) but also merely for the fact that it is by far more ethical in a multitude of ways…
Listen, I probably one of the most hardcore linux propagandists out there, which spells disaster when I confess I’m anything but a tech guru, but even I am aware some people are too off the deep end to swim back and move to another OS.
Windows is locked in a dominant position and regardless how bad their solutions are in fact, not enough tech/privacy aware high level managers exist to push windows off the corporate shelf.
The alternative is to spread Linux and FOSS to kids and incentivize the use and exploring of technology because it is simply fun to do it, not shotgun proseletize and hope something sticks.
Your intention is good but the method, which I often use as well, needs a lot of refining.
Wouldn’t it be nice to not have an adversarial, abusive relationship with your OS?
The whole point of computers, as far as I can tell, is to be that abusive relationship we never could perfect with humans. Linux is no exception, it’s just more passive-aggressive and better with gaslighting.
“You see, if only you’d installed this dependency, which I showed you so clearly in the error logs all along - and I categorised them so nicely - but you never like to look there, do you? - I mean, I understand, and that’s why I mentioned it - not too strongly, because I didn’t want to upset you more - in the terminal output…”
Most Linux developers don’t include anti-features on purpose, but Windows developers do.
I think dependencies have gotten simpler on Linux with flatpak. The fact that the command-line is still sometimes needed on Linux is just a fact of life. Nobody is forcing users to use it out of any sort of passive-aggressive distain for users, but just that it takes less time out of volunteer developers’ schedules to buold command-line tools.
I think one thing to note in the CLI-GUI debate though is that Windows pushed hard against CLI interfaces from day 1. Even starting with Windows 3, there were a lot of things you couldn’t do with CLI easily, while Unix has always had full CLI support. Users being unfamiliar with CLI interfaces is a symptom of Windows dominance.
I mean it’s so logical, I have real troubles figuring out why so many people don’t get it.
You can’t immediately see what options you have in a command line.
In a UI, you see the “menu” button right there.
If you have no idea about anything, in a UI, you can still click on the menu button, and are presented with more options.
In a command line, if you have absolutely no clue, what do you need to do? Honestly, you have to ask someone who knows (be it a friend, a manual, or web search). You can randomly start typing or press keys, but the chance to get to something useful is very low.
Why do people always assume GNU+Linux relies on a command line these days!? That’s like saying Windows does… I.e. it’s not true. Maybe if you go back to the Win9x and DOS days.
I swear, if you’re going to complain about possibly the only OS that fully respects users and their freedom, how about you actually use it first and understand it’s GUI mechanisms before spouting nonsense.
Windows is dominant because of extreme anti-competitive and other nasty practices in the past. The reason it’s still dominant is because it has locked itself into it’s dominant position since people are used to it (they still do many nasty practices today, as well)
Package managers have become so much better with dependencies. It’s been a while since I’ve encountered an issue, with yay it very usually works out of the box.
Agreed. Though I do have recent experiences of dependency troubles. I really should get better at reporting them to the proper channels, but by the time I’ve worked out how to fix, I usually don’t have the energy left… 😕
You realize that 16 means 2016, right? That’s almost 8 years ago. And even as someone who uses Linux I don’t like Ubuntu. I highly recommend trying Mint, Fedora, or EndeavourOS (Arch)
There’s a difference between feeling abused from intentional mistreatment and then there’s frustration from miscommunication or inadequacy from either partner.
And if you use Linux you have to jump through hoops to install (non-steam) games. I know, just yesterday I had to search a working tutorial for installing Fall Guys.
As a user who bought FG on steam, I had ZERO issues whatsoever getting this to run on my Walmart laptop. This is an Epic issue. Fuck Epic. Ran Fall Guys into the ground before laying off basically all of its creative team. It’s just a grind now…
Anyone who makes a stand to defend Linux as a gaming platform over Windows is righteously impractical at best, and a principled idiot at worst. It’s simply not there yet.
This isn’t much of a hoop, you install wine and run the installer with it, furthermore, I’d rather deal with the kind of hoop that isn’t actively harming you intentionally any day.
My advice is honestly, just use steam, it’s largely a better experience anyway. I don’t think fall guys is exactly necessary. That’s a very self-imposed hoop, i’d get it if it was critical work, or if there were no alternatives, but, steam is a perfect experience.
It’s epics job to support linux, not linux’s job to support epic.
You ignore the reality though that even though it might be “epics job” to support Linux, it’s still the user’s problem right now if you want to play Fall Guys with your friends.
And you can’t just say “playing Fall Guys is not exactly necessary”. Social connections are very important to humans, being one of a group to not be able to participate in a shared activity can be socially isolating. Of course that’s a completely different topic you could argue about if it should be like this, but you can only dismiss it as not necessary for yourself, not as not necessary in general, for others.
If you use Windows, it works immediately, if you use Linux, you have to spend the time and do whatever that guy did. This is a very real cost for the user, time is one of the most precious things we have.
Of course you can argue about if it is worth it, but in the end people assign different value to things. If playing Fall Guys is very important to someone and it takes more time to do on Linux than on Windows, then Linux loses value. And this situation is not a single instance. People mostly only do what is the best for them in particular, and using less time to do the things they want to do is a prime example for this.
Fall guys is not the only game, nearly all of steam works flawlessly. So meh, and it is epics job to fix that. Play any other game on steam, fall guys isn’t important at all for the vast vast majority of users.
You do realize how much money Microsoft spends to make games work well on Windows, right? It is absolutely the responsibility of the OS to ensure smooth experience across many apps and services. This attitude right here is why Linux plays second fiddle to Windows still.
and yet nearly everything on steam works flawlessly.
It is absolutely the job of app devs to support the platform, I have no idea why you would believe otherwise, and as far as gaming is concerned I genuinely believe the only place linux loses on steam is anticheat, which isn’t a matter of linux side support. Do you have an example?
Any advanced user will face dozens of hoops a month on Linux
It’s never the simple things, nor the very difficult things. It’s small, niche workflows & use cases of your computer that you “sometimes” do, like, I don’t know, editing a PDF, installing shareX or an equivalent that can take a screenshot and upload it to imgur / run OCR on a part of your screen, running a Space Engineers server for your friends, running SSEEdit.exe to dump the contents of a potion overhaul mod in Skyrim and calculate which are the best ingredients to plant in your Skyrim greenhouse and garden for maximizing gold output.
No need to look up ways to do any of those, I’ll get different ones next week, and then more the week after.
You know, the millions of things that no one ever does except that guy in 2019 on StackExchange, but that you will have to do and then never again.
I face yearly hoops at most and I have supported many users, the vast majority of people have little to no trouble, and the cases you describe are either niche, one time setups, or bizarre things nearly nobody does.
I maintain that the vast majority of users will face fewer issues on linux than windows, these are all insanely edge cases.
Editing a pdf works perfectly, yes edge cases occur, but by definition they are not the norm, and edge cases would be resolved by more people using it anyway, and I can still easily recommend it for most people.
Linux in a huge number of cases performs better than windows, and the only place where windows seems to win these days is anti-cheat, which is malware. Windows is certainly better when it comes to allowing users to install malware, but that’s really about it.
I used to think the same and sure there are still definitely games that won’t work, but gaming on Linux has come a loooong way. And with the recent bullshit that Microsoft is pulling with Windows 10 and especially 11 I just couldn’t take it anymore.
I just pulled the trigger last week and took out my Windows 10 drive! Ironically, league of legends broke on Linux again the next day. But I’m sticking with it. Windows is just so slow, bloated, and hard to navigate. And all my games run fine on Linux. LoL will probably be fixed again soon.
I’ve spent countless hours playing a game called Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI with PUK, which comes with its own DRM (non-Steam). Despite its availability on Steam, I’m hesitant to buy it again for the same experience, especially since it doesn’t run on Linux.
Another game I enjoy, Dead by Daylight on Steam, consistently runs into issues such as severe memory leaks, unresponsive spacebar after alt-tabbing, random freezes, and occasional stutters no matter what troubleshooting I attempt.
Lastly, my wife and I frequently play Fall Guys. While it’s mostly audio-related, there are occasional random disconnects that never happen on Windows, which can be frustrating for a game meant for casual enjoyment
Honest question, what do you consider not compatible? I switched to Linux earlier this year and 100%'d Armored Core 6 (Verrrrry good game everyone should play it) and I’m currently playing through Cyberpunk 2077 + Baldur’s Gate 3 co-op with friends. If AAA games like these work pretty well I’d assume the vast majority of those 60k games work as well.
Linux not being able to launch a game (that probably was not made for it) is not a relationship issue but a technical one.
Even if it is possible to run the game but you need to hack around your distro’s configurations, you can be certain the default configuration was not made with the specific intent of preventing you from running the game.
In the Windows case you are not hacking around with the json file to solve a technical issue.
Windows is not misconfigured, it’s Microsoft’s explicit decision to prevent you from removing some of it’s software even if it’s forced by law to do so for other people.
It’s ok if you don’t mind Microsoft’s behavior or you just find Linux’s technical issues more important in choosing an OS. But the issues are not similar neither equivalent.
Or maybe the one that I had to reinstall every other month because it kept failing to boot (probably because I broke something because I had no clue what I was doing and trying to get stuff working).
This doesn’t make any sense. Drivers only get loaded if a device matching the correct device ID is plugged in. So a wrong driver won’t, can’t, load. So why would you need to rollback?
If you don’t have the correct drivers, it’ll still work, just poorly. And from there you can get the correct ones.
I admit Nvidia software is horrible, mainly because it’s proprietary and refuses to be nicely integrated. I’m not surprised they broke it. If only they’d at least release full documentation and then we could write good drivers for them.
The nouveau drivers don’t break, and are free as in freedom, but they don’t support “reclocking” for any of the RTX cards, so they’re stuck running at a lower speed. I think the 10-series got support though so they should run fine under it.
AMD support is a lot better than proprietary Nvidia, but it has it’s own freedom pitfalls (functionally, it’s fine on most distros).
Nvidia drivers are definitely an outlier in GNU+Linux, most drivers are free and so they integrate very nicely with the rest of the system and don’t randomly break.
These people are another barrier on the road to Linux adoption. I personally had an issue with Void Linux, a systemd free distro whose manual is seriously lacking and lots of what is in Arch Wiki may not apply there. I went to their support server, detailed my problem and said that I had done what their manual said. The first response, I get is read the manual when it is just a page long(for the specific issue I was facing).
Ultimately, it was boiling down to a wrong flag attached to the command that was listed on the official website that was not solving my problem.
Support forums kind of suck all over. I’d imagine the systemd free distros are more elitest than the norm.
Also jeeze, just meming on the internet, no need to “Those people” me sheesh.
This is very true. There is a difference between being bad at using software, and software being bad. Linux just has an intrinsically bad desktop design.
You don’t need skills to use GNU+Linux, in the same way you don’t need skills to use Windows.
It has different ways of doing things which needs to be learned, but that also applies the other way around. I’ve not touched Windows in years, and so it’d be quite an unfamiliar environment and I’d need to learn a new way to do things. That doesn’t mean it’s bad (it is, but for other reasons).
Tl;Dr just because you’re not familiar with something doesn’t make it bad or inferior
It’s not Linux or Windows. For example Gaming and everyday Tasks I use Windows because Games I play run much better on Windows and I like to use it more. But for things like programming I will use Linux. I’m just beginning learning to code but I already made the painful experience of trying to get compiler, debugger etc. running on windows.
Linux and Windows are Tools. You can’t use a Hammer for every Taks, sometimes you need a Screwdriver.
Some tools are easy to repair but some tools detect if replaced parts are not from the manufacturer and refuse to work, or even require a subscription. You may say you really need a “screwdriver” but that doesn’t negate the criticism it requires being shoved up your fucking ass to work.
I believe proprietary software gives unjust power to the creators/owners over the users and that most people being taken advantage of is detrimental to a free society.
Ableton Live and plugins don’t work on Linux, and I’d rather run it on my own build, so I have to use Windows. That’s also the machine I game on. Everything else is Debian.
Thanks for the Bitwig suggestion, I’ll look into it.
I’ve tried to set up multitrack recording a few times on Linux and regularly run into configuration issues. It is clearly not at parity with Windows. And even when one flavor of software does work, that’s not the same as someone’s chosen software working.
Some people have a workflow where they need to share stems and settings with collaborators or for mixing, which requires a specific program. And there’s still a fair amount of personal investment in learning the power features of a given DAW.
I’m using Linux as a daily driver and would like to see wider adoption. Unfortunately this is an area where I can’t recommend it.
You know, if you use Linux you don’t have to jump through hoops like this (trivial though they may be). Wouldn’t it be nice to not have an adversarial, abusive relationship with your OS?
Some of you sound like the annoying stereotype of vegans pushing their diet lifestyle.
That’s because like vegans, there is a moral imperative that most ignore or don’t care about, we have a genuine emotional attachment to foss, and because you are ignorant of the topic, you don’t care to listen.
What he said is harmless, true, and there is a moral imperative to say it, and ontop of that it isn’t like a diet, it’s better software that respects you, doesn’t spy on you, and for free and the only downside is a 15 minute install process (and the use of a flash drive). Why do you care enough to fight that?
I’m all for Linux and have been using it for years, but saying a 15min install is the only downside is disingenuous. For many people there are a few programs they rely on that won’t work on Linux, and hardware support and general user-friendliness are still not quite where they should be.
the vast majority of hardware is supported, and as someone who works IT and gives linux to the elderly, I don’t agree at all with the user unfriendliness, provided you use mint and kde.
If your software doesn’t run that does suck, but the vast majority of usecases work perfectly with the breif explanation of “use the app store for any software you need to install.” Do you have any examples of user friendliness issues, or is it just that there are choices to make at all?
“The vast majority” is useless if the hardware someone has doesn’t work, and you usually don’t get official support and warranty from the manufacturer for Linux. There are also some categories like webcams, audio equipment or fingerprint readers where Linux support is still notoriously bad. And even if something mostly works, it’s fairly common for some hardware to have missing features, instabilities or minor issues on Linux. E.g. my mouse works on Linux ofc, but the software to set and edit profiles doesn’t.
Usability issues are mostly cases where you have to fall back to the terminal. An example from my experience would be that trying to upgrade the system from the app store fails half the time, so I have to use the terminal. Another would be a failed boot or graphics issues due to a broken Nvidia driver installation or messed up SELinux policies. It’s all fixable in the terminal, but good luck if you can’t use that.
I would not agree that is common at all, these are edge cases and I bet your mouse works with piper.
plus soon immutable distros will fix any chance of system breakages, and it’s not like similar things don’t regularly happen on windows.
How much are you willing to bet? I give a hint, there is an open issue from 2016 on their GitHub about supporting the manufacturer of my mouse. And that’s pretty much the point, because on Windows I just get the software with the box and that’s it. Of course it’s closed source and stuff, but it still provides a better experience than no support at all. And that’s just one example, Linux also can’t use the highest available resolution of my webcam, and the fingerprint reader on my laptop has been completely unusable on Linux from day one.
Immutable distros fix most boot issues, in the sense that you can undo a failed change, but that’s about it.
Ofc Windows has its fair share of issues, but it just doesn’t break as much in my experience. Probably because they have orders of magnitude more people working on finding and fixing consumer issues, incl. from 3rd party device and software manufacturers.
I’m sorry, but you’re lying to yourself if you think consumer support is on par with Windows. It’s getting closer and closer every year, but we are not there yet.
You can not agree with OP, but that doesn’t change reality. Linux is a pain to use for a regular user. Linux doesn’t support some programs that people depend on and have learned to use. Those things aren’t an issue for Windows, people don’t need to look around for fixes.
I get it, you like it. But the reality of it is - it’s a niche operating system for home use for a reason.
I don’t agree that it’s a pain for the regular user, I think it’s a pain if you use niche software, or software that’s designed to not run on linux intentionally.
Outside of that, it works perfectly fine. The vast VAST majority of users will not miss any software.
Demonstrably false.
Weird that Linux can’t run some applications written specifically for Windows. It’s a nitpick, but your sentence should be “some programs don’t support Linux”, because the issue isn’t with the OS, it’s with the developers of the software.
In any case, outside of some specific examples, most Windows software actually does work on Linux thanks to Wine and Proton.
Maybe not, but they need to look around for fixes to dozens of other issues that shouldn’t exist. Like getting rid of ads in your OS.
Honestly true. At the very most you have to make certain switches to some software. For elderly people these switches are pretty minor since often they aren’t needing something like industry software for their work and at most will need to switch to like… LibreOffice, OnlyOffice or something of the sort. Not hard. For people in a job that may need design software like any Adobe product, there are Plenty of alternatives that work pretty well. Main thing is just spending a few days to get used to it and learning the differences. Only big thing I’d say that would be very hard to switch to Linux is if you make Music. Because if you use FL Studio, the closest alternative is LMMS… and it sorta sucks and at times is very uncomfortable to work with. You’d probably have to switch to Ardour or Reaper which would be a pretty massive change… Overall though, those account for a small number of people.
In fact, installation is one of the easiest parts unless you use vanilla arch
Just fuck off and let me use whatever OS I want
Nobody has forced you to do anything, suggesting better, more respectful software is not force, why bother fighting against a more ethical alternative that respects you?
You’re free to choose and they’re free to criticise.
If linux was a better software, it would have a substantial desktop share. But it doesn’t since it’s the most unintuitive userhating software built by man.
Because as we all know, the free market always comes up with the correct answer and is never distorted by companies.
I’ve never seen any OS being shilled like linux, it even beats apple fanboys during its heyday. A free OS that’s constantly pushed down our throats should by all means be a consumers number 1 choice if it was good.
But I guess having to learn 5 million commands to open a folder is bad design, who knew? I have better use for my time than debug drivers and figure out dependencies when W10 sort of works all that out for me in an intuitive fashion.
Thanks for showing that you’re not acting in good faith, bye.
You know exactly what I mean though. I just think you can’t bear to come up with a lie explaining how “sudo fifo 8 6 j u77f6j 87” is good design.
Are you just typing random letters? Terminal commands are basically programs, like word. There’s thousands of them, just like there’s thousands of programs on windows. And yeah, these programs, or terminal commands can get quirky, but they are also very powerful.
Luckily for you, modern distributions work perfectly fine without ever touching the terminal, so you should be fine if you prefer gui programs.
If you think you need to learn commands to open a folder you didn’t use Linux for the past 20 years. Most things are done now via a graphical environment such as Plasma or GNOME. It’s the more advanced things such as managing system services that are done via a terminal. But normal user really doesn’t have to do these kind of things for normal desktop use.
mkdir directory_nameThis comment too was posted without an /s. Insane how furries think that is a normal thing to do to use your pc
It’s not normal either… you just use the file manager. It doesn’t even open the folder. Just ignore them.
Also, did you just call us furries without a /s?
ls path/to/directory/Also, vegans actually do something good for the planet instead of just choosing a different OS for their PC. So, maybe acknowledge that to your neighborly vegan next time, instead of telling them a story about how you once met someone who was really pushy about veganism.
What the heck is that image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
“Why do gay people always act flamboyant?”
“Why do vegans always push their lifestyle?”
Because you don’t see the ones that don’t
Tbf yes. They do something good for the planet. But I wouldn’t say choosing a different OS isn’t good for the planet either. First, you aren’t supporting companies that will burn this planet down without a second thought for a few million dollars. Secondly there are a few things on Linux made to use less electricity than Windows AND the fact it can run on older computers just fine means that there is less of a need for constantly upgrading this creating less computer waste. (Which something I and many others advocate for and a very solid reason to use Linux) but also merely for the fact that it is by far more ethical in a multitude of ways…
Listen, I probably one of the most hardcore linux propagandists out there, which spells disaster when I confess I’m anything but a tech guru, but even I am aware some people are too off the deep end to swim back and move to another OS.
Windows is locked in a dominant position and regardless how bad their solutions are in fact, not enough tech/privacy aware high level managers exist to push windows off the corporate shelf.
The alternative is to spread Linux and FOSS to kids and incentivize the use and exploring of technology because it is simply fun to do it, not shotgun proseletize and hope something sticks.
Your intention is good but the method, which I often use as well, needs a lot of refining.
The whole point of computers, as far as I can tell, is to be that abusive relationship we never could perfect with humans. Linux is no exception, it’s just more passive-aggressive and better with gaslighting.
“You see, if only you’d installed this dependency, which I showed you so clearly in the error logs all along - and I categorised them so nicely - but you never like to look there, do you? - I mean, I understand, and that’s why I mentioned it - not too strongly, because I didn’t want to upset you more - in the terminal output…”
Most Linux developers don’t include anti-features on purpose, but Windows developers do.
I think dependencies have gotten simpler on Linux with flatpak. The fact that the command-line is still sometimes needed on Linux is just a fact of life. Nobody is forcing users to use it out of any sort of passive-aggressive distain for users, but just that it takes less time out of volunteer developers’ schedules to buold command-line tools.
I think one thing to note in the CLI-GUI debate though is that Windows pushed hard against CLI interfaces from day 1. Even starting with Windows 3, there were a lot of things you couldn’t do with CLI easily, while Unix has always had full CLI support. Users being unfamiliar with CLI interfaces is a symptom of Windows dominance.
Or Windows dominance is a symptom of the average computer user struggling with a cli
I mean it’s so logical, I have real troubles figuring out why so many people don’t get it.
You can’t immediately see what options you have in a command line.
In a UI, you see the “menu” button right there.
If you have no idea about anything, in a UI, you can still click on the menu button, and are presented with more options.
In a command line, if you have absolutely no clue, what do you need to do? Honestly, you have to ask someone who knows (be it a friend, a manual, or web search). You can randomly start typing or press keys, but the chance to get to something useful is very low.
Why do people always assume GNU+Linux relies on a command line these days!? That’s like saying Windows does… I.e. it’s not true. Maybe if you go back to the Win9x and DOS days.
I swear, if you’re going to complain about possibly the only OS that fully respects users and their freedom, how about you actually use it first and understand it’s GUI mechanisms before spouting nonsense.
Windows is dominant because of extreme anti-competitive and other nasty practices in the past. The reason it’s still dominant is because it has locked itself into it’s dominant position since people are used to it (they still do many nasty practices today, as well)
I don’t think you’ve seen the number of power user articles these days that give you two options :
Lmao I forgot about the registry. I was never a Windows power user.
It’s was definitely one of those “seemed like a good idea at the time” kinda things, but now they’ve realised they’ve created a monster.
I use command line by choice on Linux, but find myself forced to use PowerShell to make a windows installation that is somewhat bearable.
Yeah, I don’t mean from the devs - though part of the community can be a bit like that sometimes. But the computer itself…
I may have been anthropomorphizing, with a touch of experience-induced poetic imagination.
Package managers have become so much better with dependencies. It’s been a while since I’ve encountered an issue, with yay it very usually works out of the box.
Agreed. Though I do have recent experiences of dependency troubles. I really should get better at reporting them to the proper channels, but by the time I’ve worked out how to fix, I usually don’t have the energy left… 😕
My stint with Ubuntu… 16? Did not end well.
You realize that 16 means 2016, right? That’s almost 8 years ago. And even as someone who uses Linux I don’t like Ubuntu. I highly recommend trying Mint, Fedora, or EndeavourOS (Arch)
There’s a difference between feeling abused from intentional mistreatment and then there’s frustration from miscommunication or inadequacy from either partner.
And if you use Linux you have to jump through hoops to install (non-steam) games. I know, just yesterday I had to search a working tutorial for installing Fall Guys.
BTW for anyone needing help in the future, this worked: https://youtu.be/X41PlQNx0vk
As a user who bought FG on steam, I had ZERO issues whatsoever getting this to run on my Walmart laptop. This is an Epic issue. Fuck Epic. Ran Fall Guys into the ground before laying off basically all of its creative team. It’s just a grind now…
Anyone who makes a stand to defend Linux as a gaming platform over Windows is righteously impractical at best, and a principled idiot at worst. It’s simply not there yet.
This isn’t much of a hoop, you install wine and run the installer with it, furthermore, I’d rather deal with the kind of hoop that isn’t actively harming you intentionally any day.
It was not easy. Other guides didn’t work, I had to find it, and also do or, so it took like 1 and a half hour.
My advice is honestly, just use steam, it’s largely a better experience anyway. I don’t think fall guys is exactly necessary. That’s a very self-imposed hoop, i’d get it if it was critical work, or if there were no alternatives, but, steam is a perfect experience.
It’s epics job to support linux, not linux’s job to support epic.
You ignore the reality though that even though it might be “epics job” to support Linux, it’s still the user’s problem right now if you want to play Fall Guys with your friends.
And you can’t just say “playing Fall Guys is not exactly necessary”. Social connections are very important to humans, being one of a group to not be able to participate in a shared activity can be socially isolating. Of course that’s a completely different topic you could argue about if it should be like this, but you can only dismiss it as not necessary for yourself, not as not necessary in general, for others.
If you use Windows, it works immediately, if you use Linux, you have to spend the time and do whatever that guy did. This is a very real cost for the user, time is one of the most precious things we have.
Of course you can argue about if it is worth it, but in the end people assign different value to things. If playing Fall Guys is very important to someone and it takes more time to do on Linux than on Windows, then Linux loses value. And this situation is not a single instance. People mostly only do what is the best for them in particular, and using less time to do the things they want to do is a prime example for this.
Fall guys is not the only game, nearly all of steam works flawlessly. So meh, and it is epics job to fix that. Play any other game on steam, fall guys isn’t important at all for the vast vast majority of users.
You do realize how much money Microsoft spends to make games work well on Windows, right? It is absolutely the responsibility of the OS to ensure smooth experience across many apps and services. This attitude right here is why Linux plays second fiddle to Windows still.
and yet nearly everything on steam works flawlessly.
It is absolutely the job of app devs to support the platform, I have no idea why you would believe otherwise, and as far as gaming is concerned I genuinely believe the only place linux loses on steam is anticheat, which isn’t a matter of linux side support. Do you have an example?
Any advanced user will face dozens of hoops a month on Linux
It’s never the simple things, nor the very difficult things. It’s small, niche workflows & use cases of your computer that you “sometimes” do, like, I don’t know, editing a PDF, installing shareX or an equivalent that can take a screenshot and upload it to imgur / run OCR on a part of your screen, running a Space Engineers server for your friends, running SSEEdit.exe to dump the contents of a potion overhaul mod in Skyrim and calculate which are the best ingredients to plant in your Skyrim greenhouse and garden for maximizing gold output.
No need to look up ways to do any of those, I’ll get different ones next week, and then more the week after.
You know, the millions of things that no one ever does except that guy in 2019 on StackExchange, but that you will have to do and then never again.
I face yearly hoops at most and I have supported many users, the vast majority of people have little to no trouble, and the cases you describe are either niche, one time setups, or bizarre things nearly nobody does.
I maintain that the vast majority of users will face fewer issues on linux than windows, these are all insanely edge cases.
It doesn’t matter that they are one time setups, the question is how many one time setups will you have to do in a year, year over year?
Same for “insanly edge cases” (editing a pdf, lol), the question is how likely are you to encounter an edge in your daily life?
When there’s a one-in-a-million chance to encounter a defect but there’s millions of them, it just becomes likely.
Turns out the world is made of a lot of edges for some advanced users.
Editing a pdf works perfectly, yes edge cases occur, but by definition they are not the norm, and edge cases would be resolved by more people using it anyway, and I can still easily recommend it for most people.
Harming you intentionally… This is rich.
Do you actually believe windows doesn’t harm users intentionally? Wait until you hear how they spy on you.
Don’t care, I block it. Doesn’t mean it’s not superior to Linux for a gaming platform.
“I have to guard against my partner hitting me, doesn’t mean they’re not better at playing tennis”
Linux in a huge number of cases performs better than windows, and the only place where windows seems to win these days is anti-cheat, which is malware. Windows is certainly better when it comes to allowing users to install malware, but that’s really about it.
In that same Linux I had to rack my brain and still failed to launch the game I want.
You mean like that relationship?
Sure Linux has its own pros, but not what I need.
I used to think the same and sure there are still definitely games that won’t work, but gaming on Linux has come a loooong way. And with the recent bullshit that Microsoft is pulling with Windows 10 and especially 11 I just couldn’t take it anymore.
I just pulled the trigger last week and took out my Windows 10 drive! Ironically, league of legends broke on Linux again the next day. But I’m sticking with it. Windows is just so slow, bloated, and hard to navigate. And all my games run fine on Linux. LoL will probably be fixed again soon.
I’d say Linux not running League is a feature 🙂 come play StarCraft and micro more than one unit 😁
Or Dota.
Join us over at !dota2@lemmy.ml :)
If League is still broken by new years, I’ll learn DotA. It’ll be my new years resolution haha
Are you using Steam? What game isn’t compatible with Linux and/or requires significant user effort to run?
I’ve spent countless hours playing a game called Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI with PUK, which comes with its own DRM (non-Steam). Despite its availability on Steam, I’m hesitant to buy it again for the same experience, especially since it doesn’t run on Linux.
Another game I enjoy, Dead by Daylight on Steam, consistently runs into issues such as severe memory leaks, unresponsive spacebar after alt-tabbing, random freezes, and occasional stutters no matter what troubleshooting I attempt.
Lastly, my wife and I frequently play Fall Guys. While it’s mostly audio-related, there are occasional random disconnects that never happen on Windows, which can be frustrating for a game meant for casual enjoyment
Doesn’t work with older videos cards.
On Steam 60 000 games of the 70 000 are not compatible with Linux.
Honest question, what do you consider not compatible? I switched to Linux earlier this year and 100%'d Armored Core 6 (Verrrrry good game everyone should play it) and I’m currently playing through Cyberpunk 2077 + Baldur’s Gate 3 co-op with friends. If AAA games like these work pretty well I’d assume the vast majority of those 60k games work as well.
Linux not being able to launch a game (that probably was not made for it) is not a relationship issue but a technical one.
Even if it is possible to run the game but you need to hack around your distro’s configurations, you can be certain the default configuration was not made with the specific intent of preventing you from running the game.
In the Windows case you are not hacking around with the json file to solve a technical issue.
Windows is not misconfigured, it’s Microsoft’s explicit decision to prevent you from removing some of it’s software even if it’s forced by law to do so for other people.
It’s ok if you don’t mind Microsoft’s behavior or you just find Linux’s technical issues more important in choosing an OS. But the issues are not similar neither equivalent.
Or maybe the one that I had to reinstall every other month because it kept failing to boot (probably because I broke something because I had no clue what I was doing and trying to get stuff working).
Or maybe the one that I had to learn how rollback graphics drivers because I bought wrong brand of graphics card.
This doesn’t make any sense. Drivers only get loaded if a device matching the correct device ID is plugged in. So a wrong driver won’t, can’t, load. So why would you need to rollback?
If you don’t have the correct drivers, it’ll still work, just poorly. And from there you can get the correct ones.
Maybe wrong terminology? Or hopefully not an issue.
Nvida released a new driver. The driver crashed my Linux every time put on load. Had to uninstall with command line. Install old instead.
With the replays on how that common with Linux and how I should brought amd. I assumed was Common frustration with new nvidia.
Oh. Nvidia. Right.
I admit Nvidia software is horrible, mainly because it’s proprietary and refuses to be nicely integrated. I’m not surprised they broke it. If only they’d at least release full documentation and then we could write good drivers for them.
The nouveau drivers don’t break, and are free as in freedom, but they don’t support “reclocking” for any of the RTX cards, so they’re stuck running at a lower speed. I think the 10-series got support though so they should run fine under it.
AMD support is a lot better than proprietary Nvidia, but it has it’s own freedom pitfalls (functionally, it’s fine on most distros).
Nvidia drivers are definitely an outlier in GNU+Linux, most drivers are free and so they integrate very nicely with the rest of the system and don’t randomly break.
Skill issue
Says linux elitist.
These people are another barrier on the road to Linux adoption. I personally had an issue with Void Linux, a systemd free distro whose manual is seriously lacking and lots of what is in Arch Wiki may not apply there. I went to their support server, detailed my problem and said that I had done what their manual said. The first response, I get is read the manual when it is just a page long(for the specific issue I was facing).
Ultimately, it was boiling down to a wrong flag attached to the command that was listed on the official website that was not solving my problem.
Support forums kind of suck all over. I’d imagine the systemd free distros are more elitest than the norm. Also jeeze, just meming on the internet, no need to “Those people” me sheesh.
Bruh, computers are tools to accomplish a task, if you wanna obsess over jack shit, then stare at the toilet, dont gatekeep a hobby.
Pick the tool without ads in your way then lol I’m not gatekeeping, simply saying get gud
Bruh, saying “get gud” to someone incapable of doing so doesn’t make you cool, it makes you an unempathetic asshole, and a bad software developer.
Whoa posting that comment made me a software developer?
If you need skills in order to use an OS, then that is a bad OS.
This is very true. There is a difference between being bad at using software, and software being bad. Linux just has an intrinsically bad desktop design.
You don’t need skills to use GNU+Linux, in the same way you don’t need skills to use Windows.
It has different ways of doing things which needs to be learned, but that also applies the other way around. I’ve not touched Windows in years, and so it’d be quite an unfamiliar environment and I’d need to learn a new way to do things. That doesn’t mean it’s bad (it is, but for other reasons).
Tl;Dr just because you’re not familiar with something doesn’t make it bad or inferior
It’s not Linux or Windows. For example Gaming and everyday Tasks I use Windows because Games I play run much better on Windows and I like to use it more. But for things like programming I will use Linux. I’m just beginning learning to code but I already made the painful experience of trying to get compiler, debugger etc. running on windows.
Linux and Windows are Tools. You can’t use a Hammer for every Taks, sometimes you need a Screwdriver.
Some tools are easy to repair but some tools detect if replaced parts are not from the manufacturer and refuse to work, or even require a subscription. You may say you really need a “screwdriver” but that doesn’t negate the criticism it requires being shoved up your fucking ass to work.
Bruh. In which Industry do you work? Don’t act like using Windows/Linux is causing you physical Pain.
I believe proprietary software gives unjust power to the creators/owners over the users and that most people being taken advantage of is detrimental to a free society.
Ableton Live and plugins don’t work on Linux, and I’d rather run it on my own build, so I have to use Windows. That’s also the machine I game on. Everything else is Debian.
You could try Bitwig. I have a friend that prefers it over Ableton even on Windows. And Windows-only VSTs work with Yabridge
Thanks for the Bitwig suggestion, I’ll look into it.
I’ve tried to set up multitrack recording a few times on Linux and regularly run into configuration issues. It is clearly not at parity with Windows. And even when one flavor of software does work, that’s not the same as someone’s chosen software working.
Some people have a workflow where they need to share stems and settings with collaborators or for mixing, which requires a specific program. And there’s still a fair amount of personal investment in learning the power features of a given DAW.
I’m using Linux as a daily driver and would like to see wider adoption. Unfortunately this is an area where I can’t recommend it.
Yeah, let me know when Revit, Civil 3D, ArcGIS, OpenRoads Designer are operable and supported on Linux.
Yes, should escape from using Windows if can. But this is just news, why automatically there must be a comment like that?