@hedge I dislike Facebook, so that’s why I am here. But if the only way to stay in touch with people I know irl is on Threads, so be it. Either my server federates with Threads, or there’s one more Threads user in this world.
Well, at least that’s what many people would choose, imo. On the flip side, if Facebook itself would be federated and my server would federate with it, I would simply delete my Facebook account. Period.
I get that Meta is an outrageous organization, but people seem to forget the purpose of these platforms altogether - which is communication. And communications happen when other people use the same platform as well. And okay, let’s say I have a managed Fedi server (which is the most hassle-free option of self-hosting, leaving money and legal stuff aside). What am I gonna do if, e.g. I get a Tinder match and the girl is asking me for my Facebook or Insta? Should I say something like “hey, I don’t have either, but make an account on this random-ass website where only a few hundred people are there as well, and you don’t know anyone of them personally”?
If people want to get people to leave the Meta platforms for Fedi and whatnot, then federating with Threads and educating people this way would actually be a better option imo.
I see your point of trying to help everyone communicate with each other. However, as has been pointed out repeatedly in the last few months, the threat of a 3e strategy (embrace, extend, extinguish) applied by Meta is imo very real and dangerous to the whole fediverse. That’s why people want to defederate threads. And when large corporations use their huge userbase to make everyone else’s life harder and peer pressure you into joining them then that’s on them. I mean, there is a reason we few people are here on the fediverse. For most it’s probably making the effort to stay away from those privacy-invading, controlling corporations and create something by the people for the people. I get that it is tempting to be able to reach the masses stuck in platforms like Facebook or Instagram. But this comes with the real threat of destroying what we’ve build here. Restraining from federation doesn’t cost us anything though, as we’ve already made the decision to get together here in this small community.
@FfaerieOxide huh? How is that supposed to be an analogy? You are infinitely safer interacting with a Threads user here than by actually using Threads itself. Like, I don’t get it. Do you guys want to get more people on the Fediverse? Do you want to convince your friends or just turn the Fediverse into the default way of communicating with people so that if you meet a new person at a cafe or a bar to simply ask “hey, what’s your fedi address?” without them giving you a weird stare and ask you what’s that thing? Or are you just implying that we should just have, like, our own castle, where only we can socialize online and the other people would simply be some foreigners of some sort?
Yes, that change can happen even in time. But with a social network like Threads joining in with hundreds of millions of people you have the opportunity to show, at least to people you know, but not only, live, what it is like to get on a platform that respects your privacy, doesn’t bother you with ads of any sort, have a more sane feed that you as a user can control, and still keep up with the latest stuff they care about. Threads was never and never will be about all this stuff.
Sure, they will try all their best to, e.g. rank you lower in the feed or do a Pixelfed thing on whatever. Or some people will look at you like a Linux promoter or something. But if more people in the mainstream see the Fediverse as a valid platform and not some sort of a niche thing that geeks and hackers like to use, then they’ll be more likely to join.
What many of you fail to understand is that Meta joining in is an opportunity to freely advertise the Fediverse to the masses. Sure, not the whole 100 mln. or so Threads users will join, but imo, in terms of user numbers, this part of the Fediverse not owned by Meta will have a lot to gain. And when that happens, we’ll have a lot more leverage if/when they do nasty stuff. Or just shut their federation for good.
And one more thing: I get those that are defederating from Meta by principle, because of how Meta behaves as a company. But defederating with Meta strictly because of the bad users there simply implies that all of those 100 mln. users are bad faith. Are you really believing that 100 mln. people in this world among of which some of your friends and family members are all transphobes, homophobes, nazis etc.? If so, then you have a pretty gloomy view of the world.
I mean, sure, many users will be problematic (as there are on many Fedi instances that one might or might not have blocked) which would need the ban hammer a lot. Probably even temporary defederation untill the situation gets resolved.
But I like to think that these people are a minority in this whole world. 🙂 @hedge@flora_explora
@FfaerieOxide people hate Facebook. Or Meta. They hate their policy, they hate how their services (don’t) work, yet they stay there because everyone is there. If they see people that are not there, I think they are more likely to make the switch (not that will do, but more likely).
not legitimize it’s use
I never said that people should use Threads to join the Fediverse. I said that people who already use Threads can be more easily convinced to join this place.
But if you think a good chunk of people will just randomly browse the web, stumble upon these weird sites called kbin.social or libranet.de and understand how they work from the get-go, then I have bad news for you.
That is, unless you just feel better staying in a cloister castle anyway.
In which case, you should understand that not anyone wants this. 🙂
I never said that people should use Threads to join the Fediverse. I said that people who already use Threads can be more easily convinced to join this place.
How will you convince them if they can get everything the fediverse offers without leaving Threads?
@FfaerieOxide Tell them to join the Fediverse from the Fediverse 😀
Like, simply, if you tell them that they can access all the content they want on Threads (because that’s why they’re there), while not being there, and also see it demoed from you, the person already on the non-Meta Fediverse, they are more likely to make the switch, especially if they encounter any regular issue like being wrongly banned or having network issues.
Hell, even if they create backup accounts here, it’s still a partial win for us - they can switch back any time back and forth and see what fits them better. ;)
As nice as it would be to see people ditch Threads for the Fediverse, I suspect the number of people who will actually do that would be infinitesimally small. The power of inertia is very, very strong.
Influence is about perception, and though it may be other people who are acting on that perception, it is still very carefully and intentionally managed by Meta. Lots of people think Facebook is too important not to be a member of, or that you can’t get hired without a LinkedIn, or that you can’t use the internet without giving up your info to Apple, Google, or Microsoft, so why even bother trying not to… and they’re all false narratives that those companies use their size and money to create and maintain the perception of, even if it’s of course the individuals that go along with those narratives. Facebook doesn’t have to hold a gun to your head to make you act a certain way.
So yes, Meta absolutely is directly impacting the Fediverse by announcing their intent to offer federation with Threads.
@FfaerieOxide I think we all have our needs and wants, out of which all need to be addressed in one way or another.
The very fact we’re having this discussion is a healthy sign that it’s okay to have different opinions on such topics - no matter how wrong it sounds.
There is no one-size-fits-all, despite some people like FediTips/FediFollows/FediWhatever is thinking about people.
And bad people and entities exist all the time. They existed before Facebook, they existed with Facebook (and Meta), and they will exist after Meta as well. Just check any blocklist of any okay server and you will spot them.
If you know them IRL, you can tell them IRL to get off of facebook.
This didn’t work, sadly. And it doesn’t work because such platforms make you think that they are the default. That nothing exists beside them or that if it does, it’s either dangerous or empty. Don’t you even see that the first question someone joining Mastodon is “who is also there?”. This is a good opportunity to show them that someone is there…
@FfaerieOxide So you realize something is not on Threads by the fact that it is not on Threads? On this logic, I also heard about a bearded man bringing presents on 25th of December each year.
Well, I can agree with many points you made. I also think that FG is overreacting.
The only thing I want to say is that Fediverse by design lets administrators choose which instances they connect to. It’s rather unfair because there’s virtually no free alternative choice to fediverse, but as we choose fediverse, disconnection is a thing. The only question is whether FG is going too far this time. And if it is, we either convince FG to retreat or build an alternative to FG.
@hedge I dislike Facebook, so that’s why I am here. But if the only way to stay in touch with people I know irl is on Threads, so be it. Either my server federates with Threads, or there’s one more Threads user in this world.
Well, at least that’s what many people would choose, imo. On the flip side, if Facebook itself would be federated and my server would federate with it, I would simply delete my Facebook account. Period.
I get that Meta is an outrageous organization, but people seem to forget the purpose of these platforms altogether - which is communication. And communications happen when other people use the same platform as well. And okay, let’s say I have a managed Fedi server (which is the most hassle-free option of self-hosting, leaving money and legal stuff aside). What am I gonna do if, e.g. I get a Tinder match and the girl is asking me for my Facebook or Insta? Should I say something like “hey, I don’t have either, but make an account on this random-ass website where only a few hundred people are there as well, and you don’t know anyone of them personally”?
If people want to get people to leave the Meta platforms for Fedi and whatnot, then federating with Threads and educating people this way would actually be a better option imo.
I see your point of trying to help everyone communicate with each other. However, as has been pointed out repeatedly in the last few months, the threat of a 3e strategy (embrace, extend, extinguish) applied by Meta is imo very real and dangerous to the whole fediverse. That’s why people want to defederate threads. And when large corporations use their huge userbase to make everyone else’s life harder and peer pressure you into joining them then that’s on them. I mean, there is a reason we few people are here on the fediverse. For most it’s probably making the effort to stay away from those privacy-invading, controlling corporations and create something by the people for the people. I get that it is tempting to be able to reach the masses stuck in platforms like Facebook or Instagram. But this comes with the real threat of destroying what we’ve build here. Restraining from federation doesn’t cost us anything though, as we’ve already made the decision to get together here in this small community.
Agreed.
100% block Meta everywhere it’s trying to extend its poisonous tentacles.
It’s not “very real”. Because people already on Mastodon right now aren’t going to suddenly switch to threads. We have nothing to lose.
@flora_explora that’s why you have to get as many people here before the last e phase ;)
You are arguing for drinking gasoline before the spark comes rather than setting out a sign banning flammable liquids.
You cannot out Meta Meta or use their desire to hurt you against them. You can only oppose them with hard walls and hard lines.
@FfaerieOxide huh? How is that supposed to be an analogy? You are infinitely safer interacting with a Threads user here than by actually using Threads itself. Like, I don’t get it. Do you guys want to get more people on the Fediverse? Do you want to convince your friends or just turn the Fediverse into the default way of communicating with people so that if you meet a new person at a cafe or a bar to simply ask “hey, what’s your fedi address?” without them giving you a weird stare and ask you what’s that thing? Or are you just implying that we should just have, like, our own castle, where only we can socialize online and the other people would simply be some foreigners of some sort?
Yes, that change can happen even in time. But with a social network like Threads joining in with hundreds of millions of people you have the opportunity to show, at least to people you know, but not only, live, what it is like to get on a platform that respects your privacy, doesn’t bother you with ads of any sort, have a more sane feed that you as a user can control, and still keep up with the latest stuff they care about. Threads was never and never will be about all this stuff.
Sure, they will try all their best to, e.g. rank you lower in the feed or do a Pixelfed thing on whatever. Or some people will look at you like a Linux promoter or something. But if more people in the mainstream see the Fediverse as a valid platform and not some sort of a niche thing that geeks and hackers like to use, then they’ll be more likely to join.
What many of you fail to understand is that Meta joining in is an opportunity to freely advertise the Fediverse to the masses. Sure, not the whole 100 mln. or so Threads users will join, but imo, in terms of user numbers, this part of the Fediverse not owned by Meta will have a lot to gain. And when that happens, we’ll have a lot more leverage if/when they do nasty stuff. Or just shut their federation for good.
And one more thing: I get those that are defederating from Meta by principle, because of how Meta behaves as a company. But defederating with Meta strictly because of the bad users there simply implies that all of those 100 mln. users are bad faith. Are you really believing that 100 mln. people in this world among of which some of your friends and family members are all transphobes, homophobes, nazis etc.? If so, then you have a pretty gloomy view of the world.
I mean, sure, many users will be problematic (as there are on many Fedi instances that one might or might not have blocked) which would need the ban hammer a lot. Probably even temporary defederation untill the situation gets resolved.
But I like to think that these people are a minority in this whole world. 🙂
@hedge @flora_explora
I’m happy for you, or sorry that happened.
You should not be interacting with Threads. No one should be, and you should not legitimize it’s use.
You will not convince people to leave threads by letting them stay on threads and still talk to you.
@FfaerieOxide people hate Facebook. Or Meta. They hate their policy, they hate how their services (don’t) work, yet they stay there because everyone is there. If they see people that are not there, I think they are more likely to make the switch (not that will do, but more likely).
I never said that people should use Threads to join the Fediverse. I said that people who already use Threads can be more easily convinced to join this place.
But if you think a good chunk of people will just randomly browse the web, stumble upon these weird sites called kbin.social or libranet.de and understand how they work from the get-go, then I have bad news for you.
That is, unless you just feel better staying in a cloister castle anyway.
In which case, you should understand that not anyone wants this. 🙂
@hedge @flora_explora
I agree; people rightly hate facebook and meta
How will you convince them if they can get everything the fediverse offers without leaving Threads?
@FfaerieOxide Tell them to join the Fediverse from the Fediverse 😀
Like, simply, if you tell them that they can access all the content they want on Threads (because that’s why they’re there), while not being there, and also see it demoed from you, the person already on the non-Meta Fediverse, they are more likely to make the switch, especially if they encounter any regular issue like being wrongly banned or having network issues.
Hell, even if they create backup accounts here, it’s still a partial win for us - they can switch back any time back and forth and see what fits them better. ;)
@hedge @flora_explora
As nice as it would be to see people ditch Threads for the Fediverse, I suspect the number of people who will actually do that would be infinitesimally small. The power of inertia is very, very strong.
What an apt analogy.
Do you see how they are already using their size to control and negatively impact the fediverse? The very fact you are arguing that.
If you know them IRL, you can tell them IRL to get off of facebook.
If they won’t well, either keep talking to them IRL or reexamine who your friends are.
Facebook is not (yet?) negatively impacting the fediverse. Fediverse users are.
Meta negatively impacts everything by being Meta. You should not cover for nor defend them.
Influence is about perception, and though it may be other people who are acting on that perception, it is still very carefully and intentionally managed by Meta. Lots of people think Facebook is too important not to be a member of, or that you can’t get hired without a LinkedIn, or that you can’t use the internet without giving up your info to Apple, Google, or Microsoft, so why even bother trying not to… and they’re all false narratives that those companies use their size and money to create and maintain the perception of, even if it’s of course the individuals that go along with those narratives. Facebook doesn’t have to hold a gun to your head to make you act a certain way.
So yes, Meta absolutely is directly impacting the Fediverse by announcing their intent to offer federation with Threads.
@FfaerieOxide I think we all have our needs and wants, out of which all need to be addressed in one way or another.
The very fact we’re having this discussion is a healthy sign that it’s okay to have different opinions on such topics - no matter how wrong it sounds.
There is no one-size-fits-all, despite some people like FediTips/FediFollows/FediWhatever is thinking about people.
And bad people and entities exist all the time. They existed before Facebook, they existed with Facebook (and Meta), and they will exist after Meta as well. Just check any blocklist of any okay server and you will spot them.
This didn’t work, sadly. And it doesn’t work because such platforms make you think that they are the default. That nothing exists beside them or that if it does, it’s either dangerous or empty. Don’t you even see that the first question someone joining Mastodon is “who is also there?”. This is a good opportunity to show them that someone is there…
@hedge
How much are those relationships worth then?
You make Meta seem more like the default by allowing contact with you through it. Be something they can’t access while associating with evil.
@FfaerieOxide that’s not how the perception of the masses works, though.
@hedge
How can allowing access to everything on something people start out viewing as the defualt make it seem like less of the default?
Only by things existing outside of threads can people realize it it not.
@FfaerieOxide So you realize something is not on Threads by the fact that it is not on Threads? On this logic, I also heard about a bearded man bringing presents on 25th of December each year.
@hedge
Well, I can agree with many points you made. I also think that FG is overreacting.
The only thing I want to say is that Fediverse by design lets administrators choose which instances they connect to. It’s rather unfair because there’s virtually no free alternative choice to fediverse, but as we choose fediverse, disconnection is a thing. The only question is whether FG is going too far this time. And if it is, we either convince FG to retreat or build an alternative to FG.