Bobr

Well, as a Ukrainian, I also hope so, but unironically.
Because if my hometown will get conquered by “hostile force” people will finally be able to leave, and I will be able to visit it and leave it afterwards.

Nah probably not, but he’ll be stopped at Kursk just like the last time :)

protecting Ukraine

So, turning Ukraine into a mass prison that people are desperatly trying to escape, where people are kidnapped on the streets and sent to die on the frontlines? Can they somehow opt-out of this protection? Yeah, didn’t think so, obviously you know what’s better for other people.

No rational person could think he intends to do anything but hand over Ukraine to Russia.

Obviously it wouldn’t happen, just the current front lines would become the new borders.

But even your bogeyman “hand over Ukraine to Russia” is still orders of magnitudes better for Ukrainians than the current situation.

Start of the war between Russia and Ukraine.

Now I have to worry every day that people I know (who have not managed to escape Ukraine) will either get killed by a Russian rocket or will get kidnapped from the streets by Ukrainian “recruitment officers”.

Why is Telegram “insane”?

Left-wingers identify nearly everyone who doesn’t agree with them or doesn’t share their delusions as “right-wing extremists”.

The existence of this post (and its title in particular) might give you a clue…

I haven’t seen Kamala saying anything about ending the war tho or having a plan for that…

You seem to have trouble understanding my question :(

Let me rephrase it in that case - whom should I support if I want war to end?
It’s definitely not Dems though, as they will continue the war just like they were doing this whole time.

In case you are not willing to answer it, good day to you as well :)

Well, first of all no - it’s a fallacy and doesn’t work like that ;)

Secondly, if there are two parties, and you distrust both, but first party has been supporting war for two years and says that they will continue to do so, and the second party says they will stop it - how is it not the logical choice to support the second party (assuming you are actually affected by the war and so want it to end)?

Cya

I think it’s strange that you say you live there, but don’t seem to have a preference on HOW the war ends. There’s a big difference between a Ukraine victory, a Russian victory, and anywhere in the middle.

What difference is there for an average Joe?

I’m not going to tell you how it is, if you’re there, you know better than I, but I do know that Trump is not someone you want to put your trust in.

But I did not say anywhere that I trust Trump, in fact I said otherwise that I fully agree with you that politicians (including Trump) cannot be trusted!..
As I said - he at least says that he will end the war, and the Dems say they will continue it.

He’s essentially Putin in training, and if you’re still ok with that, you can fuck right off, because fascism isn’t good for anybody.

And again - if there would be other (viable) candidates, sure I’d support them. Is there any other candidate who promises that Ukrainians will stop dying?

Well, maybe you’re right, I don’t know.

Like sure, maybe all that you’ve said is true!

But Dems will 100% continue the war just like Biden was doing this whole time. Trump at least says that he will end it.
So as I see: chance of peace with a Dem is 0%, chance of peace with Trump is >0%.
Do you think I am wrong here ^ ?
And if no, then how am I supposed to support anyone but Trump?

Here we go again, I always hear the same arguments and they don’t make sense…

Nobody talks about Ukraine being turned into Russia. After peace talks start, new borders will be drawn (give or take) at the current frontlines (which could be way closer to Russia if peace talks started sooner btw).

And btw, even apart from that - do you know how to identify someone who never visited Ukraine and Russia? They are scaring you of living in Russia. Ukraine and Russia is the same shithole, give or take. Seriously, take whatever metric you want - HDI, GDP, corruption index, journalist freedom index, amount of wooden toilets on the outside, what-fucking-ever, what you will see? Both countries being close together, sometimes Ukraine is a bigger shithole, sometimes Russia is.

Read further then. Familiarize yourself with the Foundations of Geopolitics, the very geopolitical playbook Putin is carrying out as we speak.

Well, obviously I can’t read it in a reasonable amount of time to continue this discussion, so maybe instead you would be so kind to tell me what exactly from that book makes you say that?

Immigration occurring != Russians liking immigration.

So, you must like immigration in order to not be nazi? This seems like an even weirder take for me, really… I think it is mostly western countries that are actively supporting immigration, it doesn’t really happen on a similar scale in the rest of the world… Middle east, most of Asia (Japan, South Korea, etc.), are they all nazis by that logic?..

Yes, Ukraine is low on the list, but above Russia.

So as I said, nearby.

Does that make Ukraine Nazis?

Your previous paragraph is talking about corruption and journalist freedom, I’ve never said that this is what makes Ukrainian government Nazis…

Is there any evidence whatsoever that Zelenskyy himself as a Jew and whose ancestors died in the Holocaust is, himself, an anti-Semite or Nazi-sympathizer?

Well, posting photos with Azov brigade’s commander (that even you agreed are nazi), seems to be a good indicator of being a nazi-supporter, wouldn’t you say?
What about him supporting Stepan Bandera (you still didn’t say what you think about that great guy btw), another nazi?

Does that justify Putin’s aggressive invasion of a sovereign nation just like Hitler did with Poland? Any reasonable person would say of course not.

But where did I say that??
It was not even me who brought nazism into this discussion, some guy read my other comments and tried to somehow invalidate my opinion using the fact that I say that Ukrainian government is nazi (btw it’s a fallacy and doesn’t work like that), I’ve never said that it justified anything, I’m just arguing that nazism in Ukrainian government is very real and widespread. Please don’t put words in my mouth :)

Yeah, I think they probably have. … Naturally, proportionality matters.

Well, we will know how much war crimes were commited by each side after the war, now it’s just propaganda from both sides.
Anyway, saying that Ukraine is more righteous to commit war crimes is not cool and dehumanizing.

if Russia decided to end its imperial efforts.

Why stop at that, we might go even further back and say that there would be no war at all if there were no nazism in Ukraine…
Anyway, going back into history and pointing fingers can be done indefinitely, so this is not very productive IMHO. I prefer to discuss what is happening right now.
And anyway, I did not say that Russia is not to blame for the war. It doesn’t make it the only one who is responsible for what is happening right now. It is not Putin thanks to whom people are afraid to leave their homes because they might get forcefully sent to the army, it’s Zelensky.

I already explained this which went ignored: Ever hear the adage, “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”?

So, would I be correct to rephrase this as “it’s okay to be nazi (well, I’d argue that being friend with nazi and promoting them makes you nazi as well) as long as it helps you against your enemy”?
Because if so - we don’t actually need to continue arguing, you seem to not deny Ukrainian government being nazis but instead trying to justify it… I’m only trying to say they are nazis, I’m not trying to say whether it is justified or not :)

I call bullshit :) — I’d love proof of your Ukrainian nationality; I otherwise do not believe it. Boy, are you in the deep, deep minority if you are. Orban and Trump can definitely settle this war tomorrow — by giving Putin what he wants and expecting Ukraine to capitulate lol.

Well, I’m not going to give you a scan of my passport, sorry :)
But what exactly makes you feel so? Is admitting your own government is nazi what makes it so unbelivable? I’m sure Americans will be saying the same if Trump gets elected…
As for saying that I’m in a deep minority, again what makes you think so? Do you really think all the people that are being kidnapped on the streets and get sent to die have any sympathy for Zelensky??
You may not believe me, but every single Ukrainian friend I have hates Zelensky, because thanks to him, either they or their father/husband/brother/etc. might be caught on a street and sent to die at any time.
The absolute majority of people who support him are those who will not be the ones dying in the war, or at least those who believe that they won’t. Which btw includes you and any other foreigner who supports him. It’s cool and easy to support a war, when you are not forced to die in it.

I’m not really sure what thread you’re talking about, but I’m content with where I am here :)

Ok, sure :)

Aleksandr Dugin

I never heard of this guy, so thanks for the info. He doesn’t seem to be anyone really important though, I quickly read some info about him and he just seems to be an “influencer” to me if I may use this word, not sure why you consider him Putin’s right hand…

The entire culture of Russia has become heavily anti-immigrant.

Are you saying that being anti-immigrant is somehow equal to being a nazi? I haven’t yet heard such a take.
Anyway, I found this article from UN (which was published just 3 years ago, I don’t think it can be considered outdated already?) which says Russia is actually in top 5 countries by the amount of immigrants.
https://news.un.org/ru/story/2021/01/1394392

Wagner itself had nazi origins.

Yeqh, this one I can believe.

Putin is committing now just an attempted genocide in Ukraine

Well, if you can call this a genocide, then I can definitely call the kidnappings of people from the streets and forcefully sending them to die to frontlines by Zelensky’s regime a genocide. And a Ukrainian right now is more likely to die from that, than from some shelling or otherwise becoming a civil casualty.

Forgetting the fact that Russia now has one of the worst ratings for Corruption and Journalistic Transparency in the world, matching the likes of the Taliban in Afghanistan — LOL.

I’m not sure which exactly index you are talking about (I’m not denying it though, this seems quite plausible to me), but I’m sure that if this index is in any way reliable, Ukraine would be somewhere quite close, there is just as much corruption and almost just as little journalistic freedom.

Oh and of course Putin took a page out of Hitler’s book when he invaded Poland under the false pretenses of protecting Ethnic German and invaded a sovereign neighboring nation. Nothing tops the wrongful, aggressive invasion of a neighboring state as they try to annex territory and commit documented war crime after documented war crime.

Well yeah his remark about Poland in that interview was indeed stupid.
Do you think Ukrainian side does not commit “war crimes”? Civilians in Belgorod (and other Russian neighbouring cities) are regularly dying from Ukrainian attacks.

Yeah yeah, I know people talk of Azov, but that’s <1% of UAF.

Yeah this is one of my arguments :)
Glad we can at least agree that those guys are nazis. What do you think about Zelensky (head of state!) making and publishing photos with their commander? Does it look like endorsment of nazism from the highest level of government?

Second question, what do you think about Stepan Bandera?

If you’re a Russian or Russian sympathizer

I am Ukrainian actually. I do not sympathize with Russia, I think everybody is equally bad (except for those who at least try to finish the war, which right now is Trump and Orban).

There is no motivation for Russia to accept the current front lines.

I don’t think this is correct…
We now know the details of the peace talks (from Ukrainian sources!) that started right at the beginning of the war, where Russia was ready to retreat to pre-war (so 2022) borders.
So I’m actually reasonably sure that Russia would absolutely accept the current front-lines.
The only reason there is no peace talks happening, is because Zelensky’s demands are absolutely clownish (seriously, I don’t know a better word here) - “give us back all the territories you captured, including Crimea, and then we will be ready to talk”.

there is no evidence Ukraine is nazi state

Please see my other comment in this thread, it would be easier to discuss under one comment than to split it in multiple :)

There is, in fact, much more evidence that Russia is.

Well, I guess one can find a reason to accuse almost anyone of almost anything, so let’s compare the evidence against current ukr government and current rus government (but again let’s do that in that other thread please, I already gave examples of nazism from current government there).

What do you mean Ukraine won’t accept them?
Trump’s promise was to

• Tell Putin that if he refuses to negotiate they will send much more weapons to Ukraine (isn’t that what you want btw?).
• Tell Zelensky that if he refuses to negotiate they will stop all weapon supplies.

If there won’t be weapon supplies, Zelensky will finally be forced to accept peace. Additionally he will lose his only reason for staying in power, and there will finally be elections in Ukraine.

Well, you are right, there is no reason to believe him or any other politician.
But dems openly say that they will continue the war, and Trump at least promises to end it. So you know, with Trump there is at least a chance for peace, while with whatever Dem candidate there will be - the chance is zero.