An Israeli military spokesperson confirmed that there were “hostage situations” in the southern city of Ofakim and the nearby kibbutz of Beeri.
Hamas said it had taken “dozens” of Israeli soldiers hostage and moved them to the Gaza Strip as footage emerged appearing to show gunmen in military fatigues leading a group of mostly barefoot women down a street in Israel.
The announcement and video verified by NBC News came hours after Hamas launched a deadly land, air and sea attack and fired a huge barrage of rockets at Israel.
This is just fucking barbarous. There is so much hate and bad blood in this region it is almost unbelievable.
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If you punch someone on the nose, you can’t expect sympathy when they punch back. This isn’t going to produce the result Hamas was going for.
I mean, Israel is getting sympathy for punching Palestine for the last 75 years.
If Israel had been any other middle eastern country we would have leveled them when they attacked the USS Liberty. Instead we funded 3% of their national budget for another 60 years.
false
false
Elaborate
Israel only punched some of the time, not for the entirety and some of that time they were being punched which led to punching back. No, this isn’t a one sided issue like Ukraine.
You can say the same thing about Israel as well. They are long past peaceful diplomacy when Israel decides it owns their homes.
Plenty of blame to go around, of course, but yeah, the Israeli failure to reign in Zionist squatters provides an easy rallying point. Whether or not Hamas is actually working for the interest of the Palestinian people is immaterial to the perception that they are willing and able to stick it to the Israelis.
I’ve believed for a long time that if Israel actually cared about a proper peace solution, rather than “peace when the other fuckers are all dead”, they should’ve taken inspiration from the Allies and Marshall Planned the fuck out of Palestine. Build up infrastructure and industry, and give the Palestinian people some sense that things will be better, because people who have hope don’t become terrorists. But that’s obviously not something the Israelis actually want, and they’re the ones with the power to change things, so here we are.
That’s all fine and dandy to say, but look at Sodastream. They did their best, building a factory in the West Bank, employing lots of Palestinians and paying them fairly. What did they get for that? So much hate from international terror groups like BDS that they had to close that factory down.
One factory worth of jobs can’t make up for an abusive government that wants to oppress people. They can’t work their way out of this.
And that is why nothing shall change.
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Sadly, no one sided action can solve the problem. Both Israelis and Palestinians must decide to stop the violent among themselves and actually do the hard work to come to a solution. ATM not enough folks on either side willing.
It’s already produced the result Hamas was going for. They are not fighting for better treatment, they are fighting to cause terror, murder Jews, celebrate their deaths, and revel in their control over the poeple they supposedly govern.
It was the result Nyet 'n Yahoo wanted as well. Like Mango Mussolini, he needs the distraction form his corruption in order to hide from consequences of his actions.
I can’t even comprehend how one could have the situation so backwards in their head that they could say this.
With how skewed the power balance is against them, I support any effort at all to fight against Israel.
not every underdog in the world is morally in the right, you know. There’s also a huge imbalance in power between the January 6th rioters and the United States Government—are you suggesting the rioters were in the right?
ugh, maybe I don’t want to know the answer.
The 1/6 attackers are getting light sentences
Once again, shitty comparison. I don’t even think.I have to explain how this one makes no sense.
that was your logic: you support them because the power balance is skewed.
many evil groups are small, and weak, and underdogs. Rooting for them on that basis is stupid.
I have already outlined why the Palestinians are justified.
How does this help them gain their land? On the contrary it will harden public opinion against them. The only person that benefits from this is Netanyahu. I’m stunned by the stupidity of Hamas.
Hamas does not exist to regain land. Hamas is not trying to help anybody. Hamas is using the conflict to maintain its socio-political and military control over Palestine.
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Ah yes, the old “blood and soil” justification. We have a term for people that think this way: Fascist.
Fkin tankies man 😂
Had the Nazis had a hammer and sickle instead of the hakenkreuz, they would be the biggest Sieg Heilers out there.
It’s really bizarre. Kids that have been conditioned by the internet to think democratic countries are bad and authoritarian countries are good. Ideologies are stupid in general, but the tankie thing is just batshit. Hopefully it’s just a weird phase for them, but I see there’s a bunch of tankie grifters on Youtube and as we see with the MAGA grifters, once people develop weird parasocial tendencies they struggle to get out of it.
Kids that have been conditioned by the internet to think democratic countries are bad and authoritarian countries are good
Not only that… There are some idiots who genuinely believe that China and the USSR were/are democratic and that western democracies aren’t.
once people develop weird parasocial tendencies they struggle to get out of it
True :(
Fascism is supporting Israel, what a crazy thing to say.
Do you even know what fascism is?
Israel is a Democracy.
There hasn’t been an election in Gaza since Hamas gained control… how long has it been? 18 years? Elections have been permanently suspended by Hamas probably longer than you’ve been alive.
And look at what Hamas is doing right now. And why? Blood and soil.
That should be a clue.
Do you even know what fascism is?
Israel is a Democracy.
An Apartheid democracy. What Israel is doing in East Palestine and the West bank, and what they were doing in Gaza before the second intifada, is literally Lebensraum.
“Apartheid state” rhetoric is just covering for the Hamas fascists. See before Hamas got into power Palestine had elections to determine their national leadership. But Hamas got into power and “permanently suspended” elections. They ended Palestinian democracy and by doing so destroyed any hope of Palestine being recognized as a legitimate country by anyone that’s not playing bullshit games.
So now Hamas apologists try to rewrite history to convince people there was never any Palestinian democracy, and try to characterize the conflict as something happening within Israel’s borders, thus “Apartheid state.”
I suppose it’s been so long since Hamas ended democracy in Palestine the younger people don’t have any concept of there ever being Palestinian elections, so maybe it’s understandable to think it’s unfair that Israel doesn’t allow people in the West Bank to vote in Israeli elections. But if you think about it logically, in order for Palestinians in the West Bank to have the rights of Israelis, Israel would have to annex the West Bank. Is that what you want? In order for people in Gaza to have the same rights as Israelis, first Israel would have to re-occupy Gaza, then annex it as well, Is that what you want?
But Hamas got into power and “permanently suspended” elections.
I’m not defending it, but that kinda bypasses a whole lot of context (it was Fatah who tried to ignore the election results first). ?Anyway I’m not saying Hamas are good guys. Anyone who just shoots up civilians is evil in my book, but I’m not sure how that has to do with Israel being an Apartheid state.
But if you think about it logically, in order for Palestinians in the West Bank to have the rights of Israelis, Israel would have to annex the West Bank. Is that what you want? In order for people in Gaza to have the same rights as Israelis, first Israel would have to re-occupy Gaza,
I’m talking about the already-annexed East Jerusalem. Either give them independence or let them vote on how they’re governed; and no, city elections aren’t enough.
Barbarism, like all violence, is never justified. It may be inevitable, but brutalizing innocent People has never and will never accomplish anything of merit. While the origins may be understandable, they in no way justify the actions and in no way further the cause, but definitely impede progress.
The fuck is wrong with you?
People frequently feel emboldened to celebrate murder when the people being murdered are Jews.
So, not because of a long history of brutality towards the Palestinian people, but because they’re Jewish? GFTO with that nonsense.
The conflict has been raging for a long time. So have many other conflict. Nobody defends attacks on civilians anywhere else in the world; only when the victims are Jewish.
Nobody defends attacks on civilians anywhere else in the world; only when the victims are Jewish.
This is bullshit, I’m afraid. I haven’t seen single comment here supporting an attack on Israel civilians. Stop gaslighting.
There are like twelve people here. This person doesn’t seem too torn up, but you want support, you want celebration.
Obviously, people in Palestine are celebrating the attacks, but let’s forget about them.
Mia Kalifa is not only celebrating the attack, but retweeting a good dozen other people who are doing the same, each of whom seem to be getting plenty of attention: https://nitter.net/miakhalifa
I’m trying not to expose myself to much more, but if you really want me to subject myself to people reveling in the murder of my people, I’ll go look.
that’s fascism
And what should the Jews there do until their land is theirs again? Or are only the Palestinians allowed a homeland?
Look at Israel’s borders when it was formed and look at them now, and then ask yourself why there’s such a difference
the charts you’ve been seeing are mostly fictitious. The most significant event those charts even attempt to depict is the 6-day war in 1967, when Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia attacked Israel, Israel defended itself, and took control of Jordanian-controlled East Jerusalem and the Syrian-controlled Golan Heights in response—and that’s about it.
Or are only the Palestinians allowed a homeland?
Everyone should be allowed a homeland, but not everyone should be allowed an apartheid state where they’re allowed to oppress others.
It’s a good thing Israel is the only place in the Middle East where people have the same rights regardless of race or religion. There’s nothing in Israel resembling apartheid.
https://www.algemeiner.com/2022/01/24/dismantling-the-apartheid-lie/
The Israeli government oppresses the Palestinian people in response to the constant threat the region poses to Israeli civilians. I wish for peace and an end to oppression. But since Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza strip in 2005, terrorist activity spiked. Israel’s concessions constantly result in the deaths of innocent Israelis. This is the conflict.
But since Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza strip in 2005, terrorist activity spiked.
Correction: Terrorist activity, predictably spiked after the blockade in 2007. I mean, turning countries into open-air concentration camps has that effect.
The Israeli government oppresses the Palestinian people in response to the constant threat the region poses to Israeli civilians.
What? How does oppressing civilians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem help combat terror? How does settlement in the West Bank help combat terror?
Also check the official definition of Apartheid. Do you need me to tell you how Israel fits the definition?
There’s nothing necessary about the oppression of Palestinians in Israel, Gaza or the West Bank. The terror attacks you’re talking about are the result of the oppression; don’t mix your cause and effect.
The main oppressors of Gaza are Hamas. The main reason for their living conditions is because building materials are taken from the Palestinian citizens to be instead used for tunnels into Israel to kill more Jews. The reason for the blockade is because Iran sends Hamas weapons by sea otherwise. Hell, even with the blockade they still try to do so.
Of course all of these facts are comfortably ignored because “Israel bad”.
The terror came after, not before, the blockade. Just saying. And a blockade is already an act of war, so Hamas fighting is to be expected.
Correction: Terrorist activity, predictably spiked after the blockade in 2007. I mean, turning countries into open-air concentration camps has that effect.
Your tactic is superficial. A blockade does not make a concentration camp. You’re evoking imagery of something that is, in fact, wholly unrelated. you chose that term specifically in your intentional, racist attempt to paint Jews as Nazis. I hope to hell nobody falls for it.
What? How does oppressing civilians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem help combat terror?
Specifically, the blockade helps fight terror. The blockade prevents terrorists from getting materials to make weapons. And Hamas uses anything it can get its hands on into a weapon. That’s part of the reason they work so hard to control the flow of aid within Palestine—the other reasons being quite obvious.
Also check the official definition of Apartheid. Do you need me to tell you how Israel fits the definition?
Only insofar as every border everywhere fits the definition. South African Apartheid—the thing people are trying to reference in order to demonize Israel—was intra-state apartheid. It was not an instance of border enforcement. Border enforcement is incredibly common. The Israel-Palestine conflict has nothing to do with Apartheid South Africa, but again, you people know that people think Apartheid is bad, so those are your go-tos. Israel is Nazis, Israel is Apartheid. Neither claim holds up to any scrutiny. You’d be better off arguing that Israel was a communist nation, tbh.
There’s nothing necessary about the oppression of Palestinians in Israel, Gaza or the West Bank. The terror attacks you’re talking about are the result of the oppression; don’t mix your cause and effect.
Muslims and Arabs in the region have been terrorizing Jews since at least the late 1800s. They were never willing to accept any form of peace or coexistence.
A blockade does not make a concentration camp.
That’s a metaphor, ever heard of it? Israel doesn’t allow dual-use materials. The thing is: A lot of life’s necessities are dual use. See:
According to the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories of the Israel Defense Forces, in May 2010, this included over 1.5 million litres of diesel fuel and gasoline, fruits and vegetables, wheat, sugar, meat, chicken and fish products, dairy products, animal feed, hygiene products, clothing and shoes.
Specifically, the blockade helps fight terror.
The blockade caused the terror. Like literally the rocket attacks started with the blockade; you can look at the timeline. Also I like how you now narrowed your definition to the blockade, because you can’t justify anything happening to Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
Only insofar as every border everywhere fits the definition. South African Apartheid—the thing people are trying to reference in order to demonize Israel—was intra-state apartheid.
You need to learn more about East Jerusalem. I’ll start: East Jerusalem Palestinians are systematically and routinely evicted from their homes to make way for Jewish settlements. It’s much harder for Palestinians to gain construction permits than it is for Jews. Palestinian peaceful protests are repeatedly suppressed violently. It’s almost impossible for a Palestinian in East Jerusalem to get Israeli citizenship (not that many want it, but the ones who do can’t), meaning that they live under a regime they can’t politically participate in. Should I go on? For more information, look up “Palestinian boy shoot in face by Israeli police”. There’s more than one story.
Note how I didn’t even touch on the West Bank; that’s a whole different beast.
Muslims and Arabs in the region have been terrorizing Jews since at least the late 1800s. They were never willing to accept any form of peace or coexistence.
You mean anti-Jewish sentiment began to rise when the “let’s take Arabs’ lands for ourselves” movement began to gain steam? Say it ain’t so. Also give me an example of that terrorization.
I thoroughly encourage anyone on the fence about the situation to read the article you linked because it is a fantastic example of how weak Israel’s argument that they’re not an apartheid state is. It’s nothing but whataboutism and tokenism.
Just to clarify, you understand they’re all semites and they’re all from that particular region?
Like, it isn’t Israelite land any more than its Palestinian land and at a certain point, these claims of “it was ours first” just continue the cycle of violence, oppression and war crimes.
They are all both perpetrators and victims.
Yeah, but his belief that it’s his homeland is more valid than their belief it’s their homeland because a bunch of weirdo evangelical Christians who pull the strings of the largest military in the world think Jews need to be in Israel for the end times to commence.
The word “antisemitism” has a long, complex history you can read about on wikipedia. It was largely promoted by antisemites for some time. But now, it’s the standard term for racism against Jews, and we largely find debates about the use of the term tedious and pointless. We don’t mind calling it Jew-Hate, but people recognize the term antisemitism, and it works.
Religious homelands are not homelands.
Are ethnic homelands homelands?
What counts as a homeland, to you? Where are we allowed to engage in self-determination?
You know what, you’re right. My family fled Lithuania when the Soviets took over, so I’m on the next flight to Vilnius and I’m going to move into the first house I find owned by an ethnic Russian.
I would not recommend or condone that, personally, but I am happy that you are once again welcome in Lithuania. If you did find and reclaim your own family’s home through some procedure under Lithuanian law, that would be nice.
My family fled Iran during the revolution. We are not welcome there. We still own property there, in theory. Many Jews are unwelcome in many of the places they spent hundreds or thousands of years. We have frequently been expelled from our various homelands. You can see why we don’t want to be expelled from our own. I do hope you understand.
If you did find and reclaim your own family’s home through some procedure under Lithuanian law, that would be nice.
Oh trust me, some of the things Jews did for that land were not lawful. See Benny Morris’s 4-stage analysis of the Palestinian diaspora.
Yes, ethnic homelands are homelands because their ancestors have been living there. Being a member of the same religion does not entitle you or your people to land any more than shouting an incantation.
The Jewish people are an ethnic group, not only a religion. Our ancestors lived in Israel. No matter how hard the various colonizers tried to keep us over the millennia, we maintained some Jewish presence there the entire time. Now, we once again control a portion of our ethnic homeland and are not willing to give it up.
Is there something you’re still confused about?
Nope, your ancestors didnt live in Israel. People who were the same religious as you did. The jewish presence expanded rapidly in various waves, but was not as consistent as you’re making it out to be. It is not your ethnic homeland.
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Sadly, what all must do is talk to one another, respect one another, and work out a solution. Neither the Nyet and Yahoo brigade nor the clueless attack and hide while innocents are punished for your actions squad are working upon a solution. Likely they are the impediment which must go away first.
Likely they are the impediment which must go away first.
Hamas can’t disappear until Israel’s stance changes. Remember: Hamas came to power because Israel wasn’t willing to advance a peaceful solution.
And their actions make that harder to accomplish just as the actions taken by Israel can’t disappear until the Palestinians’ stance changes. It is a circle.
No no. Hamas’s philosophy, and what won them the 2006 elections (they had never won before that), was the idea that peace was clearly not working. For example, what got Israel to pull out of Gaza was not the Oslo peace process, but the second Intifada after the peace process had failed. That’s what I’m talking about. It’s not like Palestinians are fighting because they want to; it’s that Israel is creating a situation where there’s no way but to fight or accept your fate as the oppressed. Usually the oppressor needs to stop their oppression before the oppressed stop fighting back.
Now I’m not saying if Israel gave Palestinians their demands terror attacks would stop completely, but a population living in peace greatly reduces terrorist organizations’ recruitment pool. See: The IRA during the troubles vs now. There’s just no world where Hamas can maintain power without a belligerent Israel…
Your first paragraph is utterly irrelevant to the discussion as this isn’t about reasons for grievance. That said, you are mostly wrong about the cause and effect involved.
The IRA then VS now was also via Peace Process being a two way street and not one side doing something. You should study what happened to see that it was in fact both sides realizing the only way forward. Unlike you myopic “It is up to the greater power to stop fighting first!”, both sides had to. And while your supposition that Hamas relies upon the oppression for their continued existence, they would cause the process to fail by an attack, much as the current one. And the only result is those that are also reliant upon the conflict for power in Israel are using the attack to increase support for more oppression.
What should Israel’s stance be with regards to people who want them dead?
Give Gaza autonomy in exchange for disbanding Hamas and turning in their leaders. Have a third party both sides trust provide security guarantees to Palestine so they can trust the bargin will hold
Not do things that put people who want them did into power. There’s a reason Palestinians flocked behind Hamas and that was because peaceful solutions were not working.
Are you sure? Maybe the Palestinian people should vote on that. Oh wait they can’t, Hamas won’t allow a vote. Instead they threaten “their own” citizens to make sure they’re more afraid of them than of Israel.
Of course, Hamas also can’t exist without Israel, otherwise who would they have to murder “from the Jordan River to the sea” as stated in their charter.
Of course, Hamas also can’t exist without Israel, otherwise who would they have to murder “from the Jordan River to the sea” as stated in their charter.
Yes, without the oppressor the oppressed wouldn’t have rallied behind a group who want to violently expel the oppressors. That’s part of the anti-zionist argument.
Israeli army does this, Hamas does that
The people suffer.
Religion best begets violence as this just brings us closer to WW3
I hope the Palestinian people and the Israeli people can know peace in this lifetime
After so much time, I think there’s no religion left in this conflict, only pure hatred.
The Israeli Right sees the inevitable future; Israel will lose its Jewish majority in the next generation or two. Bibi said “Arabs breed like dogs”.
This is it. They may not get another opportunity to keep the Arabs down. They feel they need to crush and occupy Palestine because the alternative, in their eyes, is Arabs taking control of Israel and the Palestinians winning.
Indeed. Maybe the West Bank Palestinians can avoid getting dragged in this time.
Fuck Hamaz! The only thing that they’re good at is misrepresenting all Palestinians as terrorists.
They have done incredible damage to Palestinians with this attack.
It’s probably not even Hamas if we’re being honest, Iran probably just paid a Hamas branch to take credit while most of the people on the ground aren’t Palestinian but rather generic Islamic mercs.
I think that in the face of an overwhelming enemy the rational thing is not to fight to the last man but to find another solution. So it’s hard to understand how palestinians would get any long term benefit. It’s quite the opposite. I think they are being used as pawns by other nations.
They probably aren’t palistinia, hell their numbers alone suggest they aren’t because Palestine is severely lacking in men of fighting age because of Israeli policies and outright murders.
None of these organized people are worth a penny, both governments, all the terrorist groups, they’re all scum, and the people suffer on both sides endlessly because of them.
And of course nobody is seeing the wider range of things. This was obviously caused by Russia and Iran in order to divert western attention from the Ukrainian-Russian war. Start actually giving tools to Ukraine to end Russia and you probably will be ending/preventing conflicts in a lot of places.
Western attention was already diverted, particularly in the US with Republicans actively blocking support for Ukraine. If anything, the opportunity for this attack was bolstered by Republican MAGA efforts to unseat McCarthy, as the US is further hampered by a dysfunctional House which now cannot approve aid to Israel (or Ukraine) until they select a new speaker.
Totally agree with you, (some) Republicans are helping Russia a lot. Should be investigated where their funding is coming from
Any evidence for the “obvious”?
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I don’t think we can blame the Brits here.
After what happened in WW2, it was a noble Idea to give the Jews their own Country. Nobody could forsee that the Victims of fascism would start to behave like this themselves.
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The Palestinian Mandate was, at the time, Britain’s “own land.” The indigenous people of Judea rebelled against the British and declared their independence. Give Wales to the Welsh and Ireland to the Irish, the Jews have no connection to or interest in Wales, it’s patently ridiculous to think we would want to live there.
So you believe you have a claim to the land of Palestine Because your imaginary God told you so. Humans can Justify whatever darkest shit they come with because their imaginary told them they are entitled to it. go give your story to other brain dead cultists. atheists can’t take that shit
I believe my people have a claim to the land of Israel because our ancestors live there—we didn’t live there because God says though, we lived there because we actually lived there, and there is no shortage of evidence in this matter, there is no room for doubt—and because my people have a right to self-determination in their homeland, as all other people everywhere do, and because my people have been ostracized and oppressed and killed in every other place we’ve attempted to make our homes in, and because our safety is not conditioned on your approval.
“our safety is not conditioned on your approval”
For sure You have the world’s biggest powers fighting your corner to oppress and genocide week people. the people who own that land are the people you found living there. going back thousands of years to legitimize stealing other people’s land doesn’t register with people who still have some brain cells. only the religiously brainwashed or heavily propagandized can justify the existence of a theocratic state called Israel
There have been Jews living there through those thousands of years, but if you’re referring to the immigration of the late 1800s and early 1900s, most of the land was unsettled, there weren’t many people living there at all. As we began to settle the British colony, Turks, Syrians, Jordanians, and other Arabs started to move there. They absolutely do not have more claim to the land than we do.
This would not justify genocide, which is why we are not engaged in genocide.
Israel is the only place we feel safe. We are still not interested in your opinions on our safety.
Slowly genociding an entire people and their culture for their land eventually pushes them to commit unspeakable acts of violence to try and save themselves? Interesting.
You’d think after the atrocities of the 1930/40s they suffered they’d learn to have some empathy for others, but nope
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I think that if they had no empathy they would have exterminated them a long time ago. They have the capability
How is this saving themselves?
Do they somehow think that brutal violence at civilians will deter Israelis after brutal violence at civilians didn’t deter themselves?
No, all they’ve done here is fuck over both Israeli and Palestinian civilians. Senseless violence and revenge where nobody wins.
Gaza population growth is 3% a year. If the Israelis are committing genocide they’re not doing a very good job.
Words matter. The Israelis treat the Palestinians atrociously but it’s not genocide.
If anything the attacks will always have a response so that a rational actor would think better the next time. That strategy at best keeps the status quo and at worst could end in their own extermination.
See the apologists are on top of the threads again. You sound like Putin. The crimes of the Palestinians are inexcusable.
How is what zionists have been doing any better?
They’re not. Everyone sucks here.
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That implies Israeli crimes are excusable.
No, it doesn’t, but the fact you think it does says a lot about YOU.
Rational, informed people condemn both sides here.
Our projections only ever reveal about ourselves, and never about the person onto which we thought to project.
You sound like a spastic. I wonder how many Palestinian civilians the Israeli government has killed. They really do deserve each other.
By they way Lemmy.World mods can eat shit too for deleting comments criticizing Israel. because “please engage in good-faith and respect”
Post pics from the modlog!
Edit; still waiting
Pathetic, they even deleted it from the mod log, It was there in the instance’s mod log this morning. despite me continuing to receive replies from my deleted comment . This is worse than reddit’s shenanigans !
Edit : it’s not only my comments which disappeared from the mod log, I remember having read many more comments about this situation on the mod log this morning deleted at the same time as mine. and now they have all disappeared
Is this where we’re shocked about the Hamas fascist regime doing fascist things? Does the leftists that pretend Hamas isn’t fascist rationalize out how they are justified to do this because of “blood and soil”? Probably need to obfuscate the “blood and soil” thing to convince themselves they aren’t supporting fascism.
Odd how the actions of fascists are acceptable to leftists if the fascists are of a different religion and ethnicity from themselves.
Shall we continue with the narrative that providing military hardware to Israel to defend themselves from their violent fascist neighbors is different from providing military hardware to Ukraine?
This is who Hamas is. This is what fascists do. There’s no real goal other than promoting violence to maintain their power.
People need to stop looking the other way about actions of those they support simply because they want to go along with what everyone else is supporting on the internet. People need to recognize that Palestine has a real fascism problem. Go ahead and criticize Israel if you want, but there won’t be peace while Palestine is fascist, because peace is antithetical to fascists.
Can we stop calling everything fascist? Hamas is a terrible organization but they’re not fascist, they’re a theocratic jihadist group. It waters down us talking about actual fascists like Russia when we call every bad thing fascism.
they’re a theocratic jihadist group
Politically there’s no difference, in the categorical sense, that is, isomorphic things are equal. But occasionally it’s even clearer as e.g. the Nazis, too, could be called a theocratic jihadist group if you squint just right: They had their own esoteric system, and they definitely had jihadist fervour. Merging the state and religion was very much among their stated goal and all their internal politics were geared towards that measure.
Russia, as of yet, isn’t fascist – though Putin is now going ahead to make it so: Previously, as a Russian you were supposed to be depoliticised, now schools are indoctrinating kids in a fascist understanding of war and struggle, they are getting politicised in the image of the regime, to make sure they’ll be willing cannon fodder.
And just for completeness sake: Likud, as of yet, doesn’t seem to be fascist, at least going by Umberto Eco, only like two of 14 points are met. The settler parties to the right of them definitely are, though, which makes Likud collaborators and enablers so don’t feel bad about calling them fascists.
Can we stop calling everything in the Middle East theocratic?
Hamas is a violent anti-democractic, and misogynistic movement centered around past humiliations and blood and soil type motivations. They tick all the boxes for fascist.
Putin tries to mix the Orthodox church into his rhetoric too you know. But no one buys it with Putin. People buy it when Hamas does it because of the assumption that Muslims are primitives that only understand religion and nothing else.
People are people everywhere. Palestinians are just as susceptible to fascist rhetoric as Russians, Americans, or anyone else in the world. American fascism is the Christian cross wrapped in the American flag. Religion being used as a tool a fascists shouldn’t surprise you, it’s the norm for these assholes.
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What is your description of fascism then?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Historians, political scientists, and other scholars have long debated the exact nature of fascism.[28][page needed] Historian Ian Kershaw once wrote that “trying to define ‘fascism’ is like trying to nail jelly to the wall.”[29] Each different group described as fascist has at least some unique elements, and many definitions of fascism have been criticized as either too broad or too narrow.[30] According to many scholars, fascism—especially once in power—has historically attacked communism, conservatism, and parliamentary liberalism, attracting support primarily from the far-right.[31]
Frequently cited as a standard definition by notable scholars,[32] such as Roger Griffin,[33] Randall Schweller,[34] Bo Rothstein,[35] Federico Finchelstein,[36] and Stephen D. Shenfield,[37] is that of historian Stanley G. Payne.[38] His definition of fascism focuses on three concepts:
“Fascist negations” – anti-liberalism, anti-communism, and anti-conservatism.
“Fascist goals” – the creation of a nationalist dictatorship to regulate economic structure and to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture, and the expansion of the nation into an empire.
“Fascist style” – a political aesthetic of romantic symbolism, mass mobilization, a positive view of violence, and promotion of masculinity, youth, and charismatic authoritarian leadership.
Notably, when comparing with Hamas, 1) religion is of secondary consideration in fascism, and 2) facism tends to create cults of personality such as Hitler, Putin, etc. Fascism will always put party before everything, unlike religiously motivated groups. And in Islam particularly, it’s difficult for one charismatic leader to create a cult of personality because such a leader is always standing in the shadow of Mohammed.
Most importantly, fascism involves a comprehensive transformation of society, with a particular focus on military expansion. It’s very difficult for a group under siege to be fascist as they simply don’t have the option for expansion.
Jihadis share many similar aspects with fascists, authoritarians, etc, but those are means to an end. In fascism, the means ARE the end, there’s no real plan, the fascist dictator just tries to ride the wave of nationalism as long as they can.
Most importantly, fascism involves a comprehensive transformation of society, with a particular focus on military expansion.
Palestinians all over the world chant “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” at demonstrations. This is a reference to lands that include Israel. So there is a desire for a non-democracy to expand into the territory of a democracy. This feeling is so pervasive in Palestinian culture it’s chanted in demonstrations on the other side of the world. Note there is no reference to any religious sites, simply to land the others have that they believe should be theirs.
There have even been calls for the ethnic cleansing of Jews by Palestinians living in western countries as well. “Push them into the sea, wipe them off the map” kinds of things. Why would someone not even living there be saying these things if it’s not a societal transformation?
If you look at the actual propaganda, very little references religion. It’s mostly about how the land rightfully belongs to Palestinians. Going on and on about the 1948 map, the Ottoman Empire etc. The only thing I see that’s somewhat religious is references to the times of the Crusades. “We’ll win in time like we did during the Crusades.” But note that’s also a reference to past greatness, one of the most defining characteristics of fascism. I mean where does the word fascism come from?
In fascism, the means ARE the end, there’s no real plan, the fascist dictator just tries to ride the wave of nationalism as long as they can.
Yes and what exactly is the plan in this current aggression by Hamas? Do you feel like what they’re doing right now is part of a real plan? Nope. What is the plan for the many rocket attacks Hamas has done in the past? There is no plan. Hamas needs to kill Israelis to keep power. Do you think the Hamas leadership does these things because Allah told them to? Or do they do it to prevent their followers from leaving Hamas and joining some other group that is willing to execute attacks on Israel?
That’s the nature of fascism. You can get control over people by making them hate but you can’t allow that hatred to dissipate or you lose control. Hamas attacks Israel because if they don’t, they lose power. Sure they’ll use religious terminology to make their actions seem more legitimate to their followers, but in the end it boils down to blood and soil, promises of restoring past greatness, use of violence to maintain power.
Note there is no reference to any religious sites, simply to land the others have that they believe should be theirs.
That’s such a stretch they should call you Mr Incredible.
I don’t know why I bothered, I knew even as I was typing that you weren’t interested in learning. I knew you were going to pick as many individual parts of that definition as you could and try to force the square peg of Hamas into the round hole of fascism. Because the alternative is that maybe you were wrong about something, and oh no we can’t have that.
We really need to do a better job funding our schools.
Would Palestine have such a problem if Israel stopped encroaching on them? Honest question.
Yes, Hamas will still have their stated goal of killing all Israelis and taking all of the country.
There are many people living in Palestine, it’s important not to generalize them all as having the same will.
But for Hamas (which holds a majority of the seats in the PA), the answer is unambiguously yes. Their charter explicitly calls for the eradication of Israel, and also of all Jews. Their actions confirm their intent. They are popular and irredeemable.
More generally, a common phrase among Palestinians is “from the river to the sea.” There are varying interpretations of this phrase, and its exact meaning, so not everybody who says it means that Israel should be razed off the map, but it likely includes at least a “right of return” for not only Palestinian refugees, but their descendants (who are often confoundingly referred to as refugees themselves). This influx of millions of Arabs into Israel—a democracy—would make it impossible for Israel to function as a safe haven for the Jewish people. That is intentional.
There are a couple of youtube channels going around just asking people questions. Different people have different perspectives. But by and large, Palestinians are not willing to accept current borders, or 1967 borders, or the UN’s proposed borders from the 1940s, or any such thing without other concessions that would seriously damage Israel.
Would Germany have been such a problem if the Treaty of Versailles been more fair? Honest question.
In answering this question do you find yourself in agreement with a certain fascist regime? Thinking the treaty of Versailles was unfair to Germany doesn’t make you a Nazi. Thinking that the Nazis were justified in their actions because of the unfairness of that treaty does make you a Nazi.
See that’s how fascist propaganda works. Make people focused only on the wrongs done to them while claiming any wrongs done by them is justified.
There is no justification for ethnic cleansing. This is the goal of Hamas. They are evil.
In answering this question do you find yourself in agreement with a certain fascist regime? Thinking the treaty of Versailles was unfair to Germany doesn’t make you a Nazi. Thinking that the Nazis were justified in their actions because of the unfairness of that treaty does make you a Nazi
Good comparison, thanks.
Of course. Their goal is not to reclaim lands but to destroy israel.
Also Israel suported Hamas to displace the PLO and then it blew up in their face
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