Linux mint and pop os are winner so far
I tried Linux Mint, and enjoyed my experience and even setup everything and then when I booted up Factorio Steam didn’t use my 3080 somehow. Pop OS worked but I didn’t like the experience. I’ll have to give Linux Mint a shot again.
That is almost certainly because Factorio has a native Linux version and Steam installed that instead of the Windows version. It was trying to use OpenGL and defaulting to CPU rendering because you likely haven’t altered the default configuration.
If you force Steam to use steam play, it will download the Windows version and run it through Proton which will use the right hardware.
I’ve not played Factorio but I’ve seen a vidjeo about it. How is the Windows version on Proton better than a Linux native version?
Wouldn’t the correct answer be to fix the graphics driver or configuration? And why doesn’t OpenGL just work? Or better yet, Vulkan?
It’s this nonsense that keeps people locked in to Windows.
Running the native version requires the user to configure their system correctly and then it would work. Most people who are coming to Linux from Windows are not interested in editing config files or using the terminal and, in any case, the vast majority of Linux gaming is done by running Windows games via WINE.
Proton is WINE packaged with the software and configuration scripts so that it ‘just works’ without user intervention. If you’re on Linux, you can install Steam and Go to Settings -> Compatibility and check ‘Allow Steam Play for all other titles’ and, from that point on, it will install the Windows version of the game and run it with Proton with no user interaction (other than clicking ‘Play’).
It’s this nonsense that keeps people locked in to Windows.
It isn’t nonsense, it makes perfect sense.
You can follow the error messages (which it prints to stdout when the game launches) and determine what the problem is so that you can fix it. The problem is completely understandable, the game logs would show exactly what device it was using and you could see what piece of software is responsible and go and look at the online documentation for that project to determine the exact configuration change that you need to make.
That’s how you should be troubleshooting problems, but you can’t do that on Windows because everything is a black box and provides little to no logs. If you’re lucky you’ll get an error message.
If you have a problem on Windows you first reboot and pray. Or, if that doesn’t fix it, you search random social media or forum posts, apply arbitrary registry changes recommended by Reddit comments, upgrade drivers, downgrade drivers, install motherboard firmware and dig through the various Windows GUI menus, which are change completely between Windows 8, 10 and 11 (but not 9, which doesn’t exist for some arbitrary reason), to locate a switch or checkbox that you can flip (and reboot again) until finally the problem resolves itself seemingly on its own. To me, this is the nonsense.
This is gonna be an unpopular opinion here but telling people who have used Windows their entire lives to just switch to Linux as if it’s that easy is entirely unhelpful and makes the Linux community look elitist and out of touch.
I think I understand your broader point as saying that a switch to Linux being as simple as switching from Coors to Miller is underselling the fact that Linux is a fairly different environment/ecosystem. You’re right on that. But as someone who’s made a switch to Linux (Ubuntu) after a lifetime of other OS use, I have to say that I think it’s worth it, even with the learning curve.
I have been exclusively a Mac user and Apple cultist for at least twenty years now and only knew Windows (3.0-ME) prior to that. I have a few 2011 Intel Macs that I use for work and home exclusively (two of which were hand-me-downs) and have not been receiving updates for awhile now. I’m not in the financial position to buy a new computer and I randomly read that Ubuntu runs great on these old Macs. So I decided to give it a try. It was a bit of work that was bolstered by the fact that I do have a bit more computer know-how than the average person (but nowhere near most of the people I see on the Fediverse). But I’ve come to love it and am now working my way over to this being a permanent change.
I’m only sharing this as an example that even deeply entrenched people can learn to use this stuff. And I was a Mac guy! Apple holds your hands and does so much thinking for you! I’d think with Windows, the switch over to something like Mint would be fairly easy, given the GUI (I specifically chose Ubuntu over Mint because Mint’s GUI is described as “Windows-like” and I personally hate all things Microsoft—which is definitely a “me problem” lol—but I’m probably going to load it onto an older ThinkPad of my wife’s that we want to set up for our son).
I mean… they are out of touch. I’m sure its possible to have a pain free switch over but when I had trouble the advice was interspersed with quite a few caveats. In essence Linux is ‘easy to setup but…’ Still gonna try again though, also guys that laptop you all said was dying because linux made it crash is still working fine on windows with no sign of trouble.
Life is a long learning experience. Installing (or asking that nerdy relative to install) a Linux distro is no biggie anymore and when picking a good all-around distro like Mint, for example, pretty much anyone who has some basic experience on computers can do it.
I do agree that life is a learning experience, but I might say that you’re overestimating what “basic experience on computers” means, and I tend to find that this is fairly typical of people who have more advanced skills because this stuff is basic to us. But we can sometimes lack perspective in that regard.
Basic experience on computers for most people means “can use Office apps, can send emails, can more or less use the internet”. Essentially, they can use the computer for their work or for some light entertainment. It certainly doesn’t mean that they know how to or that they even can configure the BIOS to boot from a USB, or for that matter what the BIOS is or that it exists. It doesn’t mean that they can use the terminal, or use WINE to run their favourite Windows applications or troubleshoot an operating system that is entirely alien to them. I’d even go as far as to say that most people don’t even know what an operating system is - to them, Windows is the computer and they don’t know or care about anything different. This is the kind of person I’m talking about. Everything you said might as well be Ancient Greek to that person.
Relevant XKCD
I get it. That’s why I included the part about “the family tech guy”. And I think some sparkle of interest must be had in order to learn about that stuff. Or any stuff, like learning Ancient Greek. One has to be able to use a web search (or write a prompt to an LLM) for “beginner install linux” or some such. If the spark isn’t there, maybe buying a new Windows/Mac is the correct way to go.
To a newbie, Windows is just as alien as Linux. If someone has no computer experience, they have to learn Linux, Windows or Mac anyway. May as well get them started with the software that isn’t actively trying to invade their privacy and paste ads in their face.
A friend of mine was a console gamer and we convinced him to game on a PC.
We walked him through an Arch install, via the terminal and the wiki for his first build. I think it took 6 hours to get him to the point where he could reboot into a GUI. He broke something within a few days (an incompletely typed chmod -r command). Then we showed him EndevourOS’s installer and he was back up and running in about 2 hours.
He knows how to use the Arch wiki, he can enable Steam debugging in order to Google any errors that occur, he isn’t scared of the terminal (though he prefers a GUI if possible.
Previously he’d only ever used Windows to run Microsoft Office in a corporate environment. Now he has, on his own, installed a NAS with an ZFS array running Docker, Jellyfin, Sonarr, Radarr, etc. He doesn’t even have Windows installed (and would probably have a hard time learning it now)
Most people who are really against Linux are Windows users who have spent years learning Windows and don’t want to spend the time to learn something different. Sure, it takes some time, but the skill is well worth the time that it takes to develop.
It’s easier to use than Windows
Just give GUI troubleshooting instead of CLI
It’s easier to use than Windows
LOL, good one!
I especially loved the user friendliness of my distro randomly disconnecting my BT mouse and refusing to reconnect. Had to edit grub to get it back to working order.
Or how I changed the lock screen image through settings. Now I can see it - in Settings. Only. Because if I lock my device, I still see the old one.
Or how on Kubuntu, my previous distro, the applications’ menu (the one with “File”, “View”, “Help”, etc.) just disappeared from all apps. Spent two days trying to sort it out and ended up switching to Tuxedo OS.
Such an easy to use OS, especially for those who’ve never done one bit of troubleshooting themselves!
Windows never has issues, does it?
Not like that, it doesn’t.
I’ve never heard of someone using bcdedit to change a boot flag, so a Bluetooth adapter will behave.
The lock screen problem I’ve seen myself a while back. At least in my case, I did not have permissions to the session manager config file, and the gui tool did not account for that. But I think I had to install the tool from the repo. It wasn’t part of the base install.
The menu problem could be a Kubuntu or early plasma issue. Either way, not something I’ve ever seen in Windows.
Spoken like someone who hasn’t had to troubleshoot Windows
Could that be because he’s had fewer issues with Windows and hasn’t had a need to troubleshoot it?
Windows 11 is a shitty version of Windows, but it’s not Windows ME or Vista. It sucks because of the arbitrary CPU and TPM requirements, plus having AI forced into a user’s desktop. Not to mention Microsoft is dragging its feet fixing performance issues in Explorer.
It’s still very stable on good hardware with stable drivers. Point out the actual shit parts of Windows, not lazy callbacks to the days of Windows 98.
Steps to troubleshoot Windows:
- Reboot, pray
- Google the error, if any
- Randomly change registry settings, delete files, install software on the advice of random Internet people/LLMs until the software works or the randomware kicks in.
- Thank god you’ve never had to touch a Linux terminal, clearly a fate worse than death.
- Reboot again, just in case
Looks fairly similar to what you would do on Linux. Change registry to config file (unless you’re using Gnome, then it’s both). You’re right though, on Windows, people don’t usually have paragraph long commands to paste into the terminal to fix some issue. Instead, on Windows you have Microsoft support posts where a “Microsoft Community Support” non-employee pastes non-helpful boilerplate tech support copypasta which are somewhat adjacent to the user’s issue.
Linux at least gives us useful logging and the software packages have documentation that is accessible without paying for a Microsoft Support contract.
The Linux community support can actually fix your problems without boilerplate copypasta and doesn’t cost anything but you’ll get the customer service that you pay for.
I swapped from Windows 10 specifically because I didn’t want to be in the Windows 11 and forward environment. (I use Arch btw)
I really don’t regret it, the set up was really painful but once that was done, the KDE had so many good features that I immediately felt at home. I’m floored by how good Proton/Steam is at handling games, I don’t think I’ve had to skip on any game due to my OS (so far).
CachyOS?
I’m on good ol’ Arch Linux with plasma KDE
You’re a better man than I. I just dipped my toes in Arch by going with CachyOS.
Hey chad, I hadn’t heard of CachyOS until you brought it up, good on you for finding an OS that matches your needs and going for it
It tweaked my interest when the forums said steam works great with it. And it does! Been playing RDR2 on it and my laptop only has the built-in graphics chip.
Id run Linux if it could run the apps I need efficiently
use alternatives if possible
It’s not possible
This is very realistic and fair, I don’t subscribe to the ideologist out of touch bs personally even though I first compiled Gentoo 20 years ago.
I run Mac as my daily driver for convenience and stability but use the terminal for a ton of things and SSH into various Linux servers for my work. I run a VM in Parallels for the handful of apps which only work on windows, and generally avoid them unless they’re the only option.
Basically, what I’m saying is even if you’re dependent on some Windows only apps, you might find you have a better quality of life by making those the exception (running them in a VM) but using a more stable OS as the underlying OS.
What apps?
Ableton, FL Studio plus all the vsts I use. Plus all the adobe I use plus all the games I play that are windows only
All the games that I play are Windows-only too and they run just fine via Proton.
Yeah I don’t feel like running an emulation or a script to just play a game though. If I want to use Linux. I’ll use it on a laptop for web browsing. It’s a useless OS for me personally for every day life that has very little support from other companies.
Yeah I don’t feel like running an emulation or a script to just play a game though.
You open Steam, click Play, and the game launches.
The same as it does on Windows.
Linux has great DAWs, bridges for vsts, alternatives for Adobe software and tons of games. The issue is your unwillingness to try something new, which is fine, but that’s not a knock to Linux.
Name a real alternative to Adobe Acrobat. Especially Pro. Adobe has their crap on lockdown. And they know it, and they rape your wallet for it.
GIMP is good enough for me, and it may be a good cheaper alternative for budget minded professionals. But GIMP’s UI and workflow design pale in comparison to Photoshop. I haven’t used GIMP 3 yet though, maybe it’s gotten better.
I’ve used gimp. I pay for Adobe. I paid for FL and Ableton and used them for over 10 years. Why would I switch?
I stopped using windows while using Win XP, maybe 16 or 17 years ago. When I try using current windows I become useless, I can barely figure out how to use it.
That’s how I feel when I use Linux or MacOS
Too bad, only 1 out of my approx. 150 customers have their IT dept. using Linux as server during my 6 years in - the rest of it is Windows… all the users have either Windows 10, 11 or they use Apple.
Halp.
Edit: not counting the educational users, as they come in hordes
try mas for activiating ESU
Probably what I’m gonna do. I used to live in a country where it was completely normal to illegally download software from ThePirateBay, and that’s how everyone got their Windows versions, but I don’t even feel like doing that anymore.
Windows is becoming increasingly uncomfortable in that regard. I’ve been thinking about switching to Linux Mint for a while now.
Make a flash drive bootloader so you can preview what it is like? Why not?
if it is something I would like to do.
I did that 2 moths ago and rarley boot into windows any longer. It’s a learning curve for sure, and I’m at the bottom part of it, but it feels nice to expand your knowledge bit by bit.
Yeah, I love the DIY mindset but sometimes it feels like people are trying to learn to surf in big punishing waves and deciding that if they can’t learn to surf those that surfing is too frustrating.
It is totally legit just to dip your toes in bit by bit, thank you for making that point!
It’s like they are not even trying. I have a laptop with 7th gen CPU that works perfectly fine. I don’t have any choice than install Linux, lol.
Switching from Windows to Linux on an older computer is like when you finally get around to clearing the bathtub drain after years of hair and crud building up. Who knew a bath could drain that fast!? And now there’s no pool of water building up when I shower. Anyway, I highly recommend both Linux and clearing the drains.
Nice analogy. I should clean my shower.
As someone tried to build the snes9x-nwaemu fork from scratch today after spending hours fighting the Linux mint updater getting stuck, ahhhhhhhhjjj. I still have to have windows for a couple of things anyway which makes this all the more annoying. The update also wrecked my davinci install which I need to produce videos. Also, I work two jobs so not a ton of time for this.
Edit: it turns out that upgrading mint also broke the video editing software I need to use (divinci resolve). Yay. Also python version conflicts trying to use an open source project and other shenanigans. Python has some sort of virtual env or something, apparently, but I’m done; I do not have the time or energy to throw at this and it’s just frustrating. Back to windows I go.
I get this, I have limited time and it realy only works “out of the box” on the surface. Still, so get it’s been worth putting in the effort.
Don’t build from scratch then. I also use resolve in Linux, other than the odd Nvidia driver botch it works fine
My alternative is to try to run a bunch of stuff in wine (not sure if it would work) for the one case and I’d rather run it natively. I don’t know, for the video editing case, if it would run in wine (and if it did, would I lose my ability to use hardware rendering).
This is the problem I see with most people adopting Linux.
It’s great when it works but when things go awry you end up sinking hours of time into an issue. Generally on Windows or Mac, the most you’ll have to do is remove it and re-add it.
If more is needed, the userbase is so large that there’s a high probability that someone has had your exact issue and posted a solution about it somewhere online, you just need to go and find it.
Linux is very hit and miss on a lot of these points. Sometimes it’s great, sometimes it sucks.
Windows tends to suck all the time, but the vast majority of the time it only sucks a little bit, because it’s Windows… It works, but it’s not great.
I’m all for Linux, but as someone who is more interested in doing useful work on my computer, not troubleshooting my system to get it to operate at all, I’ve stuck to Windows for a while now. I support Linux and prefer it to alternatives when running any server-based service, but for my desktop? I can’t justify the time investment in getting it to the same operational level as my current Windows install.
This is the same reason I bought a Dell, knowing full well that I could get more performance and a better value by building my own system. I absolutely can build a system for myself, I choose not to because it’s simply more work that I don’t care to spend time on. To be fair, my system is a precision 2RU HEDT, but that’s another discussion entirely.
Please don’t take me wrong: Linux is great and should see more adoption. My argument is that there’s a nontrivial number of people who want a system that simply operates, not one that turns into a science project because of a borked update. Windows updates have caused problems, but usually not everything-is-broken type problems… More that printing doesn’t work or something like that…
Windows tends to suck all the time, but the vast majority of the time it only sucks a little bit, because it’s Windows… It works, but it’s not great
It doesn’t work though, and official windows tech support is basically useless anyways.
My experience with Windows not working is looking through three sites of search results landing me on answers.microsoft.com where the expert doesnt really help so I give up.
Linux not working is being five forum cross links deep to find an issue on the gnome networkmanager gitlab, finding out the problem was already fixed but your distro hasn’t bothered to release in like 3 years so you haven’t gotten the fix yet, so I give up
i think microsoft purged their forums or something because most of the search results seem to redirect to homepage now
I can’t tell you how pissed I was when they did they. They invalidated so many links to solutions.
Granted, there was a lot of useless slop on there too, mostly from eol versions of Windows like 2000, millennium edition…
They threw all of it away, both good and bad, without warning. Without any opportunity for anyone to archive it. WTF Microsoft.
To their credit, their new documentation seems to be much better, they actually have useful help articles on not only how to do something, but also explaining the mechanisms, requirements and limitations of things. Not everything is in their new docs but I have to give credit where it’s due, the technical document writers are doing good work.
With all that being said, it doesn’t mean that Windows, or Microsoft are on a good trajectory.
Their new operating systems and updates are some of the worst updates and changes I’ve seen to their systems. Adding ads and basically spying on paying customers…
There are some controversial changes I’m in favor of, like the TPM requirement. A lot don’t realize it but Apple integrated a TPM in basically everything they make over the years. The migration was slow but it happened almost silently, without anyone really noticing. All major smartphones have some version of a TPM, so the last bastion of not having/needing one is the PC market.
The PC market has known they should include this stuff for years before Windows 11 was released. If you go and look at mid to high end motherboards, even for custom/retail units, there are at least TPM headers on most of them. OEMs knew this was coming and instead of just integrating it into their product, like everyone else did, they made it an optional feature. Since nobody knew what the fuck a TPM is, nobody bought into that option. Now millions of computers are destined for ewaste because manufacturers couldn’t be bothered to add a small IC to the system without being obligated to do so by someone like Microsoft. An entire industry of technology has this one thing that nobody even fucking knows exists, and they’re the hold out.
… And everyone is mad at Microsoft about it.
I’m not. TPM chips are a good addition to systems. It shouldn’t even be a debate. I blame OEMs for not bothering to add them when they could have/should have, and making it mandatory on all prebuilts, all retail motherboards, all boutique systems, all custom builds… Everything. The cost difference would have been into the tens of dollars at most. It would have barely made any difference at all.
Anyways. I’ll stop now.
I’ve used Windows 10 since it’s release. I had to reset it twice because I had a virus, which very much was my misstake. Other than that it did just work fine.
I’ve switched to Mint 2 months ago and I am troubleshooting a lot. Most of that comes from inexpeariance, but the point still stands.
Windows is more or less stable most of the time.
Exactly this. And pretty much everyone here is a techie in some way, shape, or form.
Why does anyone think that a non-tech would take the time to troubleshoot their system the way we do? A user would hit their first issue and in the process of trying to solve it, just go and buy a MacBook.
This isn’t going to endear people to Linux.
We will not win the majority of the market with Linux in it’s current form. We need better integration and package management. Self repairing subsystems. We need Linux to basically fix itself when these ridiculous issues come up that non techs simply can’t be arsed to try to fix.
There’s a long way to go before pushing Linux on anyone outside of tech circles. Unless you want to be the 24/7 free tech support, it’s easier just to throw a cheap Windows system or Mac at them and let them deal with it instead.
I hate the term “it just works” because it’s almost never true, but I can say that for non techs, Windows and Mac “just work” more often than Linux does.
I love Linux. I love everything about it. From the origin story, the ability to make your system lean and clean, running at optimal performance, and being able to adjust every knob and setting to my heart’s content. I love it. But I’m a realist. All the things I love about Linux, are largely reasons that non techs would hate Linux.
I have tablets that run android and an old laptop I run on Linux and it’s great. For video editing, games, and niche software, it can suck for someone with little time.
My CPU and motherboard are from 2016. I don’t mind updating harware to reach windows 11 compability, it’s about time anyway.
I would be angry if updating to 11 from 10 would also cost money directly.
With Windows 11 you don’t have to pay for the OS because you are the product through profiling and advertising, like Facebook and Google.
That sounds way, way worse to me that the old Win7 & Win10 model where you’d pay your ~$30 oem license (or $60 retail) once and be done forever without being heavily tracked and monitored.
Having to use windows 11 for work for the last few years.
(1) Randomly a program on the taskbar just has an invisible icon. Like you can click it but if you don’t know it’s there it just seems like that program is gone. I keep waiting it to be fixed after every forced update 3-4x a week. Still happening.
(2) Sometimes the entire process just disappears graphically. Not even an invisible icon on the task at. Still running in the background but it’s gone in the UI. Have to manually kill it or restart.
(3) I can’t unzip multiple ZIP files at the same time. Like I can’t select multiple ZIP files and extract them all into their own folder. Something that worked since I’ve used windows. Worked on windows 10, 7, and XP. It now just unzips only the file you right click even if multiple are selected.
I’m sure there are more but I avoid using windows and mostly just use it to connect to a work VPN and SSH into my redhat VM. Still, all 3 of these really common issues have existed for at least two years. The first two are constant on MS teams and Outlook. Literally no excuse, they are windows apps. Total garbage OS.
At my work IT requires admin privileges to kill processes in the task manager and it’s some real psycho shit.
If it gets bad enough I just yank the cord, fuck em.
Yeah, when I started at my workplace it took me a week to realize my computer was on W11 and not something archaic. Definitely did not impress.
i’ve only ever used linux for servers as a web dev but friday i decided to erase windows on my laptop and install mint and i’m basically obsessed now (the best part is how updates just happen but they don’t restart your computer randomly when you don’t ask)
Everything seems to be pretty plug and play flawless on mint. With the exception of some not so good kernels the last 2 updates resulting in little hiccups on steam. Everything else is polished and great.
i think the only thing i found that doesn’t have an equivalent is google drive (which mounts as a drive on windows and streams files) :(
You can mount Google drive (even better, Koofr) in Linux.
does that use space on your drive? the thing i liked in windows was it just streamed the files so I didn’t need all the space available (my full drive is like 400gb)
It doesn’t. You can mount it as a network drive.
oooh great, that was my main concern! (i didn’t want to try it and then end up filling up my hdd)
Unless it’s a kernel update!
It only asks you to restart?
Yes? I was just trying to provide information.
