King Willem-Alexander and Queen Maxima were leaving the Slave Lodge building in central Cape Town when a small group of protesters representing South Africa’s First Nations groups – the earliest inhabitants of the region around Cape Town – surrounded the royal couple and shouted slogans about Dutch colonizers stealing land from their ancestors.
They were literally there to pay a visit to a museum about the atrocities of previous Dutch inhabitants in the land. I don’t know what harassing them was supposed to accomplish.
First, protest’s don’t necessarily need to accomplish anything, people are allowed to be angry.
Second, the black white wealth inequality in South Africa is still insane and the Dutch are partially responsible for that. Plus you can’t really buy groceries from awareness or excuses.
Third, as a Dutch guy I don’t really mind them being uncomfortable for a bit once in a while, keeps them grounded.
First, protest’s don’t necessarily need to accomplish anything, people are allowed to be angry.
Obviously, people are allowed to be angry. The question is whether the anger is productive.
Third, as a Dutch guy I don’t really mind them being uncomfortable for a bit once in a while, keeps them grounded.
Sure, but shouldn’t the protest have been, I don’t know, elsewhere than the visit to the museum? It’s a very “No good deed goes unpunished” - it’s a small act, sure, but surely making the museum visit the locus for the discomfort is just discouraging high-profile figures from acknowledging these sins?
Why?
They made some tokenisation effort to look like they gave a shit, why should that be rewarded?
“Oh we understand you’re still suffering and that we are partially responsible but we went inside that nice air conditioned building and had a guided tour for us after they closed the place down to every other visitor just for us. So like it’s really mean that you’re still angry at us right now”
Man, if your poinit of view is that you want to discourage high-profile people from visiting these museums because their blood is impure or whatever, I don’t know what to tell you, other than that all that’ll result in is less exposure to these places and these sins.
My point is them visiting a museum means jack fucking shit.
It is not, it keeps the knowledge of the past happenings alive in general population. It doesn’t matter if it’s part of the court responsibles or marketing or whatever you call it. Media and people will talk about the visit, people will learn there is museum and why. Just like we are now chatting about it.
Thus change that history won’t repeat itself get higher.
I guess this is where we’re supposed to agree that the status quo is working. Is that the angle?
As long as we don’t take NEW advantage of the situation, the current advantage is fine?
Nothing they do will ever mean anything, because nothing can redeem the past.
Adamantly agree. It’s token bullshit unless they do something real as a result.
Will wait for that headline.and anger need not always be productive. Sometimes most to all avenues for productive discourse are shut down.
But anger remains a legitimate and reasonable response.
So… I agree with basically everything you’re saying here and I believe you’ve stated it clearly and well.
I think OP’s point was not disregard idea that humans should reflect upon mistakes of the past. There was no reward for that unless you meant protesters being rewarded by verbally hurting someone who actually pays respect to the cause.
Okay, but it is a really good time, to protest this topic.
Imagine the protestors showing up when they visit a chocolate factory. Everyone would be wondering, why they chose the chocolate factory of all places to protest slavery.
Better would be protests everywhere they go.
How are they responsible for that?
Didn’t they go over poor and they just happend to build wealth when black people didn’t? Why do they have to share with another group of people, no one else does. Even the groups in Africa don’t so it’s not like a European idea.
Did this comment make sense in your head?
Remind them where their wealth came from, that real people remain affected by it… More (all) rich people should be confronted this way, if not with violence
When a monarch actually cares about systemic injustice or the origin of their wealth, they just abolish the monarchy.
Make them leave and never come back, that’s what most victims want from their abusers.
Maybe putting a spotlight on where the Dutch Slave Trade began?
Isn’t that the whole point of the visit? The museum is about the slavery imposed by Dutch colonists on South Africa at the time.
“Oh look there’s grandpa with his collection of severed hands. I think we still have that chair!”
It’s hard to take this as anything more than looking sad as conspicuously as possible.
Though slavery of black people by whites is well pronounced, it was introuced by black people hunting their own, and selling them to Europeans. It still goes on in Africa up to this day by blacks enslaving blacks.
Slavery is not European invention, it’s human’s invention and has no preference in race. It’s based on stronger <> weaker position , e.g. after loosing war, losers became slaves to winners. In Africa stronger tribes attacked weaker ones took their women, killed resistance and sold kids and rest as slaves.
You almost have a well-made point, except that part of it sounds like you are low-key trying to blame black people specifically for the beginning of all slavery.
I’m not blaming I’m just giving history summary.
Beginning of slavery goes further back then US exist, It’s probably old as humankind itself. It was practised by Asians, one of first waves of settler in America (long before European arived there ) . African people had slaves for thousands of years. Hell there were European slaves in Africa back then. There used to be slave route going from Europe through Prague in Chechia, where European people had been castrated and taken into Africa while most of them didn’t survive the way. You heard about origin of word “Slavs” right ?
But US slavery was indeed started by black people selling black people to white man for profit in Africa. White man didn’t want to go futher into Africa because at that time it meant almost sure dead by Malaria and other sickness. Look that up if you don’t believe it. There are both books and documentaries about it.
I don’t think they meant location, I think they meant where to place blame, where to direct anger.
The only thing real is our outrage so you can just direct it wherever you want.
Yeah, and where the slavery still still goes on ( *points at people selling their own for commodities )
You don’t understand people protesting a tone-deaf experience?
Are you being purposely obtuse or are you legitimately not understanding?
You don’t understand why South African people would want to protest the Dutch king and queen?
Sure, the brutal legacy of their genocide looms over the country to this day, but they went to a museum so we good now.
You don’t understand why South African people would want to protest the Dutch king and queen?
No, I don’t particularly understand why the current Dutch king and queen are being considered responsible for the actions of the Dutch 200 years ago.
Sure, the brutal legacy of their genocide looms over the country to this day, but they went to a museum so we good now.
“of their genocide”
In what way were they, the current Dutch king and queen, involved? If you have some historical tidbit I’m missing, by all means, inform me of the sins of Willem-Alexander.
Going to a museum to pay one’s respects, and accompanied by a representative of the people who suffered so, is a positive step, one that should be at least regarded neutrally, not attacked.
In what way were they, the current Dutch king and queen, involved?
Their inheritance is comprised of stolen riches. Their whole socioeconomic status is a result of the crimes of their ancestors. They didnt commit the crime but they have kept the loot and are still profiting from it.
Their whole socioeconomic status is a result of the crimes of their ancestors.
So, ancestral guilt.
Its not just “ancestral guilt”. Like I said : “they have kept the loot and are still profiting from it”, And by loot I dont mean only valuable goods but power too. They still benefit from the power imbalance between countries that was created during colonialism. Just look at the world economy and the dynamic between the “economic south” and “economic north”
They are not guilty of colonialism “per se” but they are guilty of perpetuating, and using, the inequality and oppression that colonialism was built on for their own benefit.
So, do you mind telling me whose socioeconomic status isn’t a result of the crimes of their ancestors?
Slaves, descendents of slaves, and the poor. You know, most people.
Right ancestral guilt. Sins of the grandparents visited onto the children. People punished for crimes they didn’t commit.
In this case lets talk about African based pirates and other groups enslaving millions of Europeans even before that and after that. Africans were slavers long before Duch arrived and they built riches on selling their own people to white man.
Why are the African people not being blamed for their ancesstral guilt?
No, I don’t particularly understand why the current Dutch king and queen are being considered responsible for the actions of the Dutch 200 years ago.
We as a species have decided that generational debt and guilt is a good thing. Did your great great grandfather do something bad? This is means you are a bad person and should be punished for it because you benefited. This type of vindictive anti-justice is totally not sapping energy from productive activity and will create a world of cycles of revenge. Embrace it
This type of vindictive anti-justice is totally not sapping energy from productive activity and will create a world of cycles of revenge. Embrace it
I caught your /s, but I’m not sure everyone will, fam
Did they renounce the inheritance built on human misery and a pile of 20,000 human hands? Or that parts inherited but the sins aren’t?
As amusing as I’d find the Dutch royal family ceasing to exist over ancestral guilt, as an anti-monarchist, I don’t know how many degrees of separation you require before an inheritance is no longer considered blood-soaked. Is it infinite?
Why is it acceptable to you that the wealth is handed down but ludicrous that the blood is handed down with it?
If someone became an overnight billionaire for murdering your children, how many generations of their kids driving around in Bugattis would it take for you to consider that fortune washed of its sins?
Apparently demanding a wealthy person part with wealth is more upsetting to some people than cutting off people’s hands to acquire it.
So you argue that it is infinite, then?
If I can still see the wealth than I can still see the blood.
You keep repeating the severed hands bit but that was Belgium, not NL. Educate yourself before meming online.
Countries are responsible for their actions. That’s how that works.
You don’t get to rape and murder your way through a continent, continue to benefit from your genocide but escape any responsibility because lol that was the Netherlands but we’re the Netherlands, not our problem.
Countries are responsible for their actions. That’s how that works.
Okay, so far, we’re in agreement.
You don’t get to rape and murder your way through a continent, continue to benefit from your genocide but escape any responsibility because lol that was the Netherlands but we’re the Netherlands, not our problem.
How far back does your conception of collective and ancestral guilt go, here? Genuine question.
Better genuine question: how much in reparations do you think the dutch government is responsible for?
Just the $value of the goods and labour they stole through killing and violence? Extra to account for the wealth that could’ve been created by everything the dutch stole? Should they have to pay damages for the sheer brutality - the cutting off hands, the concentration camps, etc?
Better genuine question: how much in reparations do you think the dutch government is responsible for?
How could I answer that without knowing how far back their guilt is supposed to go?
You answer my question, and I’ll have the tools to answer your’s.
I’m not the person you’re replying to, but maybe as far back as we have receipts?
In this case, there’s no mystery about who did what to whom and what they took. The Dutch and English kept very good records. In fact, the whole colonial project was very well accounted for.
Ancestral guilty goes back exactly as far as you can trace your ancestory. Lucky for us, that’s literally all royalty is.
So if you don’t trace your ancestry at all, you have no guilt? Ignorance is innocence?
I am thinking it is like god. You have to believe in it first in which case evidence doesn’t matter.
Every morning they wake up and live a life of luxury, directly benefiting from the atrocities of their ancestors.
An actual positive step would be giving the wealth back. A photo op at a museum before hopping on a plane back to their castle doesn’t help anyone.
Every morning they wake up and live a life of luxury, directly benefiting from the atrocities of their ancestors.
Man, every day we wake up and live a life of luxury, directly benefiting from the atrocities of our ancestors. The only difference here is the scale of that luxury.
I mean, yeah, and I wouldn’t blame the current victims of those atrocities for protesting.
Have you given the wealth back from the atrocities of your ancestors?
I get what you’re saying, but you have to understand the difference between a middle-class worker versus a literal king and queen. I’m very aware of the opportunities I’ve been given thanks to where and when I was born, but in terms of actual transferrable wealth, all I really have to give is a 20 year old Honda.
By currently enjoying a massive amount of wealth that was extracted from their country and never returned. How is that hard for you to understand?
Nothing at all but turn more people off wanting to help south Africa. They already want to kill all white people and the country is collapsing again . So it’s not a big deal
The last time Europe “helped” Africans, it didn’t work out so well for us. Instead of helping us, they could just pay the nation back what they took + reparations. South Africa isn’t a classroom for beneficiaries of colonialism, it’s an active crime scene caused by them.
And as a white South African, I can assure you we aren’t in any danger. And collapsing again? When was the first time?
On the other hand, you’re right: it’s not a big deal. I give this take a 1/5.
Instead of helping us,
as a white South African,
I can’t help but feel there’s a certain disconnect here.
Instead of helping us, they could just pay the nation back what they took + reparations.
… what is that if not help?
What’s the disconnect? Do you generally call paying back a debt ‘helping the collector’?
White South Africans are literally European colonists. Like, I don’t mean that in a disparaging way, but in a literal sense. And not in a “We came by and integrated with the local people” sense, but a “We ended up as a privileged European caste in this country”.
I don’t know how much ‘us’ you can use with regards to the oppression of Black Africans by European colonists, since we’re apparently discussing collective and ancestral guilt.
Do you generally call paying back a debt ‘helping the collector’?
No, but that’s because debts are legal instruments. I don’t have any choice to pay back a debt, short of getting government goons on my ass. What’s more, debts (in the modern sense) are clearly defined and separate from ideas of guilt. This is more like a criminal wronging someone and seeking to later make amends when they see the consequences of their actions upon the victim, which I would regard as the criminal ‘helping’ the victim.
I’m not a European, so you’re wrong there bud.
But more importantly, my identity is with the people I share a culture with. I’m first a South African, then a bunch of stuff, and one thing down the line is white.
You’re right that I’m the beneficiary of a racist system. The difference is that I have no issues with affirmative action or redress. You criticising me for being white and for decolonisation is like when people criticise Bernie Sanders for being rich and supporting higher taxes. It’s a stupid, reductive non-starter of an argument.
Now that my race is out of the way. My country has been looted by European countries, and it continues to be looted by extractive imperialism. Why can’t I ask them to pay us back? Where is the contradiction?
As for making amends = helping, most people would disagree. That’s a dumb assertion.
Do you accept responsibility for Elon Musk?
I’m not a European, so you’re wrong there bud.
as a white South African,
I think you may be mistaken as to the nature of ancestry, if you think Europeans are guilty for the crimes committed upon Black Africans but your ancestors are not.
But more importantly, my identity is with the people I share a culture with. I’m first a South African, then a bunch of stuff, and one thing down the line is white.
Is that privilege afforded to Europeans?
You’re right that I’m the beneficiary of a racist system. The difference is that I have no issues with affirmative action or redress. You criticising me for being white and for decolonisation is like when people criticise Bernie Sanders for being rich and supporting higher taxes. It’s a stupid, reductive non-starter of an argument.
My point isn’t that you’re ‘wrong’ for being for ‘decolonization’, my point is that this argument is predicated on the concept of ancestral guilt. It’s not that Pierre of France, scrubbing toilets in a dingy little restaurant, owes reparations to the countless nations that France has wronged in the past. Modern democratic governments are by and of their people - when demanding blood money from France, you are demanding blood money from Pierre. Insofar as Pierre has a higher standard of living and should assist others to reach his living status, I believe it is appropriate to demand money with that goal in mind. Insofar as the idea that Pierre, born in 1990 and who has never left his little corner of the country, has some form of ancestral debt to be paid, I believe it is inappropriate.
In other words, I think you are (broadly speaking) right, but for the wrong reasons.
As for making amends = helping, most people would disagree. That’s a dumb assertion.
I don’t think most people would disagree, but it’s semantics in the end.
How many meals did people like you “wanting to help south Africa” buy?
Nome, but I lived there for a semester
Zimbabwe 2.0
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Sadly yes
Do they actually hold power or is it more like england with using them as trashy entertainment?
The British monarchs still hold power and information came out years ago showing some of the extent of it and how they still decide government actions and laws.
It’s hilarious to me that Canadians will pretend the monarchy doesn’t have power over them because they can only appoint and remove the guy who has power over them at will.
Also, that guy?
Can override anything their Prime Minister does.
And they only use that guy to not be rude.
If they wanted to do it directly, they could.
Seriously. It’s hilarious to hear people talk about how their actual head of state totally isn’t their head of state because they usually don’t do anything.
Well that sucks.
They are the head of state. They embody the State but hold very little actual political power.
They’re not that entertaining unfortunately.
Yes we do,
However they don’t hold much power over the day to day workings of the country.
The current monarch is essentially an ambassador that travels around the world for state visits and diplomatic talks. Similar to what a president and foreign minister would do.
I doubt support for the royals would be so high if not for all the national and international PR work that they do.
Do they frequently go on poverty tourism to enjoy the spectacle of cultures their people have destroyed? It’s that helpful to your country?
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I’m not the head of state of a nation that built my personal wealth from the slave trade.
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We really want to get rid of them though
Some people want to red rid of them, but by far more people want to keep it, 55% for the monarchy vs 24% for a republic
I don’t understand protest? Should they not learn the history?
What’s going on?
The dutch are NOT well remembered in South Africa, imagine if the confederates were their own ethnicity and that’s a basic picture of how South africa views the dutch segment historically.
AFAIK now Afrikaaners are seen as ok enough as long as they don’t do shit like US southerners still butthurt about the civil war do.
People are still angry their ancestors were tortured due to the actions of these two. Are you daft???
I doubt these people have done anything 🤏 😂
Should the Jews and world still be mad at currently generation of Germans for what happened in WW2?
They are still mad at Holocaust deniers. You need some education.
What do you mean about education? Example if I know the world 🌍 is round, but flat earthers denies it, why would I need education? 😂
Wouldn’t you agree it better have them visit the museum than not?
There reminiscing about the good old days I asume
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if it helps, we also don’t want them as our royalty so if they could just go ahead and lynch them that would be great.
I hope their death weighs on your conscience
Of all the places to go and things to see and do why there? Cheap flights to South Africa?
It was a state visit.
…What? Can’t you read?
