Most economist agree with externalities and wealth distribution. But people don’t like externalities and wealth distribution has nothing to do with capitalism and is to fo with politics.
The capitalists own major media, the capitalists influence curriculum, as they’ve captured the state governments that set them, from K-Colleges of Economics to say “free market” capitalism is the only way kiddies. It indoctrinates millions of non-wealthy Americans to advocate against their own interests. Hi.
They use their power over government not only to deregulate their own industries for profit, but to defund social supports and then use their media to shriek “see how government doesn’t work?! Privatize everything!”
You can sing the praises of capitalism if you want, but capitalism not straight jacketed/draconianly regulated is a social blight that removes all humanity from society. A society shouldn’t be in service to an economy, an economy should be a lowly tool to distribute goods and services for the benefit of society.
Actually it was my economics classes in university that highlighted how bad things are and how corporations need to be highly regulated. Even the professor who attempted to show us we couldn’t regulate corporations and thus shouldn’t try used a simulation that made it apparent corporations would strip the land and ocean of everything if they could.
It definitely depends on the university you go to, there’s ideological differences in economic schools of thought. But the observed science is very simple and repeatedly proves demand driven programs at the bottom of an economy are far more powerful than supply driven programs at the top.
I will sing the praises of capitalism because I understand it in a way most people on this site do not. It has done more to improve the standard of living and bring people out of poverty than anything.
Yes there are poltical issues in our society, especially America which isn’t the world and isn’t the only capitalist country. But that is a political issue.
People just need to think more about politics and understand how the economy works more. That’s where the issues lie.
That’s fine. Our trajectory is pretty well set anyway. We’ll keep insisting more growth/metastasis is the solution for the consequences of reckless growth/metastasis.
Have fun blaming everything except the root cause on the way down.
You need to look up the amount of funding corporations do verses government.
Also government spending in a capitalistic society is a good thing. It’s like education. Governments put money into education and get “nothing” back for it. It just wastes money. But Governments do not work like businesses. Governments work through taxes so anything that can increase the amount of taxes they make is a good thing.
So something like education or funding is a cost that is recuperated in taxes.
Getting business to do things is just more efficient then doing it state controlled. That’s why America did so well from the war and Germany had issues.
The understanding of economics and capitalism is very low on this website.
I read it. I’m really not sure what I’m meant to be talking from it. I think a lot of Marxists don’t understand what capitalism is.
“Its very structure, therefore, deprives us of the ability to decide collectively exactly what and how much we want to produce, on what energic basis and through what kinds of social relations. It deprives us, too, of the capacity to determine how we want to use the social surplus we collectively produce; how we want to relate to nature and to future generations; how we want to organize the work of social reproduction and its relation to that of production. Capitalism, in sum, is fundamentally anti-democratic. Even in the best-case scenario, democracy in a capitalist society must perforce be limited and weak.”
Capitalism is entirely based on the the free hand of the market not on votes. People effectively vote with money. If people want more pears instead of apples, then more pears are planted than apples. The free hand of the market works without votes and infact is a lot lot more efficient than voting on everything or on trying to control these choices from a central government. Its fundamentally why (among other reasons) capitalism is so much more efficient than anything else.
Something that seems horribly missed by certain people that don’t understand capitalism is externalities. Most economists want these corrections made to prices. They want ways to fix the tragedy of the commons, they don’t want factories everywhere polluting they want the best use of capital, land and labour.
People get to vote on the limit of business. They can choose to have green spaces around cities and there is absoultely nothing a business can do about it. All the wealth made from capitalism that wouldn’t exist without it is taxed by the government and the government can use that money to better effect. Lots of countries and cities have green spaces and high environmental protection. Capitalist want the government to pay for education and the government wants to pay for education because it gets more money back from taxes.
If I have missed something please let me know. But I’m getting tired of people on this site no understanding basic economics so I’m not sure how long this conversation will continue.
There are so many engrained assumptions here that would take a long time to undo, a lot of reading, and they take a long time to digest. I went through the journey, and thought like this once, until I realised there was a lot more to this than this narrative that is classically taught. I’m sorry. We should leave it here, maybe you’ll find it eventually. I appreciate your consideration of the text. It’s a good starting place. Ps, I was not the one who down voted.
I wouldn’t call what has been tried communism as it was never a dictatorship of the proletariat, but I’m not convinced by orthodox communism either. That is also missing a whole lot of geopolitical nuance to what actually happened. Either way, what we have isn’t working and it’s time to find something new. Lemmy isn’t a good place for theory anyway, not that any other social media is much better.
Most economist agree with externalities and wealth distribution. But people don’t like externalities and wealth distribution has nothing to do with capitalism and is to fo with politics.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_propaganda
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
https://truthout.org/articles/pedagogy-for-profit-education-under-capitalism/
The capitalists own major media, the capitalists influence curriculum, as they’ve captured the state governments that set them, from K-Colleges of Economics to say “free market” capitalism is the only way kiddies. It indoctrinates millions of non-wealthy Americans to advocate against their own interests. Hi.
They use their power over government not only to deregulate their own industries for profit, but to defund social supports and then use their media to shriek “see how government doesn’t work?! Privatize everything!”
You can sing the praises of capitalism if you want, but capitalism not straight jacketed/draconianly regulated is a social blight that removes all humanity from society. A society shouldn’t be in service to an economy, an economy should be a lowly tool to distribute goods and services for the benefit of society.
Actually it was my economics classes in university that highlighted how bad things are and how corporations need to be highly regulated. Even the professor who attempted to show us we couldn’t regulate corporations and thus shouldn’t try used a simulation that made it apparent corporations would strip the land and ocean of everything if they could.
It definitely depends on the university you go to, there’s ideological differences in economic schools of thought. But the observed science is very simple and repeatedly proves demand driven programs at the bottom of an economy are far more powerful than supply driven programs at the top.
I will sing the praises of capitalism because I understand it in a way most people on this site do not. It has done more to improve the standard of living and bring people out of poverty than anything.
Yes there are poltical issues in our society, especially America which isn’t the world and isn’t the only capitalist country. But that is a political issue.
People just need to think more about politics and understand how the economy works more. That’s where the issues lie.
That’s fine. Our trajectory is pretty well set anyway. We’ll keep insisting more growth/metastasis is the solution for the consequences of reckless growth/metastasis.
Have fun blaming everything except the root cause on the way down.
If someone comes up with a better alternative I’ve love to hear it.
So far no one has.
Technology and science is pushing humanity forward.
And despite capitalists claims, it’s the government supplying both, not the corporations.
Take billions in public funding, sell the result for profit, claim no one else could do that and no alternative exists.
Tale as old as time.
You need to look up the amount of funding corporations do verses government.
Also government spending in a capitalistic society is a good thing. It’s like education. Governments put money into education and get “nothing” back for it. It just wastes money. But Governments do not work like businesses. Governments work through taxes so anything that can increase the amount of taxes they make is a good thing.
So something like education or funding is a cost that is recuperated in taxes.
Getting business to do things is just more efficient then doing it state controlled. That’s why America did so well from the war and Germany had issues.
The understanding of economics and capitalism is very low on this website.
https://wcfia.harvard.edu/publications/centerpiece/fall2018/transcript_jodidi11-5-2018
It’s worth the read. I promise.
I read it. I’m really not sure what I’m meant to be talking from it. I think a lot of Marxists don’t understand what capitalism is.
“Its very structure, therefore, deprives us of the ability to decide collectively exactly what and how much we want to produce, on what energic basis and through what kinds of social relations. It deprives us, too, of the capacity to determine how we want to use the social surplus we collectively produce; how we want to relate to nature and to future generations; how we want to organize the work of social reproduction and its relation to that of production. Capitalism, in sum, is fundamentally anti-democratic. Even in the best-case scenario, democracy in a capitalist society must perforce be limited and weak.”
Capitalism is entirely based on the the free hand of the market not on votes. People effectively vote with money. If people want more pears instead of apples, then more pears are planted than apples. The free hand of the market works without votes and infact is a lot lot more efficient than voting on everything or on trying to control these choices from a central government. Its fundamentally why (among other reasons) capitalism is so much more efficient than anything else.
Something that seems horribly missed by certain people that don’t understand capitalism is externalities. Most economists want these corrections made to prices. They want ways to fix the tragedy of the commons, they don’t want factories everywhere polluting they want the best use of capital, land and labour.
People get to vote on the limit of business. They can choose to have green spaces around cities and there is absoultely nothing a business can do about it. All the wealth made from capitalism that wouldn’t exist without it is taxed by the government and the government can use that money to better effect. Lots of countries and cities have green spaces and high environmental protection. Capitalist want the government to pay for education and the government wants to pay for education because it gets more money back from taxes.
If I have missed something please let me know. But I’m getting tired of people on this site no understanding basic economics so I’m not sure how long this conversation will continue.
There are so many engrained assumptions here that would take a long time to undo, a lot of reading, and they take a long time to digest. I went through the journey, and thought like this once, until I realised there was a lot more to this than this narrative that is classically taught. I’m sorry. We should leave it here, maybe you’ll find it eventually. I appreciate your consideration of the text. It’s a good starting place. Ps, I was not the one who down voted.
Communism has been tried and failed exceptionally.
Hopefully something else comes along but I think it will just be a form of capitalism with higher taxes and UBI.
I wouldn’t call what has been tried communism as it was never a dictatorship of the proletariat, but I’m not convinced by orthodox communism either. That is also missing a whole lot of geopolitical nuance to what actually happened. Either way, what we have isn’t working and it’s time to find something new. Lemmy isn’t a good place for theory anyway, not that any other social media is much better.
I’m waiting for the day someone suggests I viable alternative to what we have now
They will be born of need, when things break down. Such is the way of these things.
400 years and going strong. Might have to wait a while.