The flags of Hamas and Hezbollah were waved among the crowd of demonstrators during a march in New York City on Monday, reported the American right-wing media Freedom New TV (FNTV) and according to...
The two people waving the two flags? Yeah, seems like it. But you’re painting a whole march based on two people. Which seems super disingenuous and shitty. Which is exactly what this outlet is doing here.
But, there is a marked difference between the root causes of these two instances. Though they both stem from similar places. On the far right, you have a media machine that has, for 30+ years, used dogwhistles that basically Pavlov an entire group of people (roughly half the US voting population) into salivating for racism. When the mask came off, they over salivated and moved so far right that they took up the mantle of one of the worst movements in human history. It was a conditioning, built on impulses already present in the population that was susceptible to that conditioning, that needed—like an addiction—to be redoubled and made more acute as time wore on. And there is a serious problem with far right views being made mainstream. Even if they don’t fly a swastika on a flag, that fascist, bigoted mentality is pervasive on the right. It doesn’t have to wear a tiny mustache and an armband to be Nazi.
As for the people on the left, yes, there has also been a long-standing conditioning, but less acute and more just the temperature of the water we’ve all been swimming in. That being antisemitism. So much antisemitism is baked into our culture, a lot like general racism. And yes, some people on the left were pushing it, but not in the same way.
The more overt cause of this phenomenon is online culture and the need to be “more just” or “more [blank],” the blank being whatever issue is being discussed, people want to be more right about it. More extreme, more the movement being a part of these peoples identity. So you get one-upsmanship that shows itself by people embracing ideas that aren’t that great because they want to be more passionate about the issue at hand.
Not to mention, the nuance of hamas being sort of painted as freedom fighters against a genocidal force. Because, in some respect, they are that. They are what’s attempting to stand between the Israeli government and the people of Palestine. But, in reality, they are a far right fundamentalist organization that doesn’t have the Palestinian people’s best interest at heart. They’re largely unelected, undemocratic, bigots.
But there is no room for nuance on a flag. There’s no room for nuance on a protest sign. There is only room for the most basic of messages, and when you couple that with the aforementioned identity issues involved in politics these days, then you have a recipe for idiots misunderstanding what’s good with what’s more “unique” or more of an extreme statement.
So, in short, comparing the two is disingenuous at best.
Not to mention, the nuance of hamas being sort of painted as freedom fighters against a genocidal force. Because, in some respect, they are that. They are what’s attempting to stand between the Israeli government and the people of Palestine. But, in reality, they are a far right fundamentalist organization that doesn’t have the Palestinian people’s best interest at heart. They’re largely unelected, undemocratic, bigots.
So you just didn’t read what I said and decided that what I said wasn’t right.
Entirely reasonable and a worthy addition to the conversation, thank you.
If I went to a march and saw someone waving a flag of a group that committed genocide, I’d like to think I’d be brave enough to confront those people and tell them they’re just making us all look bad and they aren’t helping.
But realistically I’d probably just go home.
Either way I wouldn’t associate myself with that kind of thing. The march would be a waste of time anyway, it’s not going to influence anyone to join a cause that’s for the genocide of the people they hate while claiming their people are victims of genocide. And if pretty much everyone went home when someone breaks out these kinds of flags, they’d soon get the point that they are hurting the movement even if no one confronted them about it.
At any rate everyone that went to this march accomplished exactly nothing because these people brought these flags. Probably worse than nothing… they likely lost support because of this.
If you care about Palestinians you should be willing to confront these people that are hurting your movement. If not, it’s just a get-together to hang out with people that support the genocide of Jews.
Honestly? A lot of them probably don’t know what a Hamas or hezbollah flag looks like. So they wouldn’t recognize it enough to say, “hey! That’s not what we’re about!” Americans are pretty uneducated about most of that stuff. If this particular issue weren’t all over the news, social media, and on everyone’s mind, Americans wouldn’t know a goddamn thing about it. Because let’s face it, this situation has been going on for literally everyone at the march’s entire lives. And this is most likely the first time it’s been on their radar. That’s not a lot of time to learn about the entire history of two separate organizations and the complicated history of an entire geopolitical conflict. They’ve only had since oct. 7.
Add Lebanon into the mix? Forget about it. I’m surprised one person there was aware that hezbollah and hamas were allies.
All of this is to say, in some respects, you’re right. Tolerating intolerance should never happen. But to paint an entire group of people that want a people facing genocide to stop fuckin dying as intolerant because probably one person flying both flags (or two people, at most) that the rest of the well-meaning people probably didn’t recognize or didn’t know the history of just feels…wrong to me.
And the entire conversation started because it was likened to right wingers flying Nazi flags. No one is unaware of nazis. It’s not the same.
As for the person/people at this march that were either fine with it or supportive of it, I tried to explain that in my last comment.
It’s not great. But it’s not as cut and dry as writing off the whole goddamn movement to end the genocide. Because that’s what the media is doing here. Not really writing about the march, but writing off the whole march because of these two people. Side stepping the entire issue at hand because they can easily dismiss the entire thing by saying, “well, see? They’re bad people. Forget the message of peace.” It’s like a window getting smashed and the same media writing off the entire BLM march as a riot. Where did you stand then?
I’m genuinely curious though. How did you feel about this tactic being used by the media to discredit and write off the BLM demonstrations? Because this is the same thing being applied to a different situation: the worst or most misguided among an otherwise positive movement being shone a spotlight on in order to derail the conversation and wreck the momentum of the movement. That’s exactly what’s happening here, it’s what happened in 2020. So where do you stand on that
Prominent people in BLM made it clear that they didn’t condone the violence being done by a small group of people.
The Palestinian protests can’t denounce Hamas, a group that murdered over a thousand people in the most brutal ways imaginable. Which is far beyond some looting that occurred during the BLM protests. While prominent people in BLM denounced the looting, we hear basically nothing about people in Palestinian protests denouncing Hamas.
Do you really think that looting is the same thing as massacring villages? If so, you may have lost perspective.
You’re absolutely missing the point of my question. I know they’re not the same. I never said they were the same. What I said was the same was this tactic being used by the media. Highlight the worst of the bunch to discredit the movement. Because that’s what’s happening here. Did you side with the media then? Or did you decry this tactic then? Because you’re encouraging it now.
And as for your points here, you’re likening two disparate movements. An actual organization dealing with issues at home, and a loose group of different people from all walks of life coming together to say what we all see happening halfway across the world needs to stop. At my local demonstrations, there are always Hasidic Jewish people demonstrating alongside, speaking out against Israel’s actions. But you don’t say shit about that, you just pick out the worst example you can find and write off the entire demonstration. And, also, how do you know no one said ‘get the fuck out of here?’ You said they accomplished nothing because these two people were there. You really did write off the entire thing because of these two flags. Based on nothing but this article.
I think you’re missing the point. Looting isn’t comparable to massacring villages and even then, prominent voices in the BLM movement denounced the looting.
That isn’t happening with Palestinian protests.
Based on nothing but this article.
I’ve seen many images of people cosplaying as Hamas at protests. It’s fairly commonplace. This is not an isolated incident.
I dunno man…if you were wandering along marching in solidarity with Germans and the guy next to you was waving a nazi flag would you keep marching? I think the people there made a strong statement
The two people waving the two flags? Yeah, seems like it. But you’re painting a whole march based on two people. Which seems super disingenuous and shitty. Which is exactly what this outlet is doing here.
If one person shows up to a Trump rally with a nazi flag you’d likely be calling the whole group nazis.
Yep pretty much. If they let it stay up definitely.
You don’t know me.
But, there is a marked difference between the root causes of these two instances. Though they both stem from similar places. On the far right, you have a media machine that has, for 30+ years, used dogwhistles that basically Pavlov an entire group of people (roughly half the US voting population) into salivating for racism. When the mask came off, they over salivated and moved so far right that they took up the mantle of one of the worst movements in human history. It was a conditioning, built on impulses already present in the population that was susceptible to that conditioning, that needed—like an addiction—to be redoubled and made more acute as time wore on. And there is a serious problem with far right views being made mainstream. Even if they don’t fly a swastika on a flag, that fascist, bigoted mentality is pervasive on the right. It doesn’t have to wear a tiny mustache and an armband to be Nazi.
As for the people on the left, yes, there has also been a long-standing conditioning, but less acute and more just the temperature of the water we’ve all been swimming in. That being antisemitism. So much antisemitism is baked into our culture, a lot like general racism. And yes, some people on the left were pushing it, but not in the same way.
The more overt cause of this phenomenon is online culture and the need to be “more just” or “more [blank],” the blank being whatever issue is being discussed, people want to be more right about it. More extreme, more the movement being a part of these peoples identity. So you get one-upsmanship that shows itself by people embracing ideas that aren’t that great because they want to be more passionate about the issue at hand.
Not to mention, the nuance of hamas being sort of painted as freedom fighters against a genocidal force. Because, in some respect, they are that. They are what’s attempting to stand between the Israeli government and the people of Palestine. But, in reality, they are a far right fundamentalist organization that doesn’t have the Palestinian people’s best interest at heart. They’re largely unelected, undemocratic, bigots.
But there is no room for nuance on a flag. There’s no room for nuance on a protest sign. There is only room for the most basic of messages, and when you couple that with the aforementioned identity issues involved in politics these days, then you have a recipe for idiots misunderstanding what’s good with what’s more “unique” or more of an extreme statement.
So, in short, comparing the two is disingenuous at best.
I don’t know if you realize this, but Hamas is far-right. Like as far-right as you can get.
You don’t know if I realize that?
So you just didn’t read what I said and decided that what I said wasn’t right.
Entirely reasonable and a worthy addition to the conversation, thank you.
Not supporting terrorism doesn’t take room.
Speaking of not grasping nuance.
If I went to a march and saw someone waving a flag of a group that committed genocide, I’d like to think I’d be brave enough to confront those people and tell them they’re just making us all look bad and they aren’t helping.
But realistically I’d probably just go home.
Either way I wouldn’t associate myself with that kind of thing. The march would be a waste of time anyway, it’s not going to influence anyone to join a cause that’s for the genocide of the people they hate while claiming their people are victims of genocide. And if pretty much everyone went home when someone breaks out these kinds of flags, they’d soon get the point that they are hurting the movement even if no one confronted them about it.
At any rate everyone that went to this march accomplished exactly nothing because these people brought these flags. Probably worse than nothing… they likely lost support because of this.
If you care about Palestinians you should be willing to confront these people that are hurting your movement. If not, it’s just a get-together to hang out with people that support the genocide of Jews.
Honestly? A lot of them probably don’t know what a Hamas or hezbollah flag looks like. So they wouldn’t recognize it enough to say, “hey! That’s not what we’re about!” Americans are pretty uneducated about most of that stuff. If this particular issue weren’t all over the news, social media, and on everyone’s mind, Americans wouldn’t know a goddamn thing about it. Because let’s face it, this situation has been going on for literally everyone at the march’s entire lives. And this is most likely the first time it’s been on their radar. That’s not a lot of time to learn about the entire history of two separate organizations and the complicated history of an entire geopolitical conflict. They’ve only had since oct. 7.
Add Lebanon into the mix? Forget about it. I’m surprised one person there was aware that hezbollah and hamas were allies.
All of this is to say, in some respects, you’re right. Tolerating intolerance should never happen. But to paint an entire group of people that want a people facing genocide to stop fuckin dying as intolerant because probably one person flying both flags (or two people, at most) that the rest of the well-meaning people probably didn’t recognize or didn’t know the history of just feels…wrong to me.
And the entire conversation started because it was likened to right wingers flying Nazi flags. No one is unaware of nazis. It’s not the same.
As for the person/people at this march that were either fine with it or supportive of it, I tried to explain that in my last comment.
It’s not great. But it’s not as cut and dry as writing off the whole goddamn movement to end the genocide. Because that’s what the media is doing here. Not really writing about the march, but writing off the whole march because of these two people. Side stepping the entire issue at hand because they can easily dismiss the entire thing by saying, “well, see? They’re bad people. Forget the message of peace.” It’s like a window getting smashed and the same media writing off the entire BLM march as a riot. Where did you stand then?
I’m genuinely curious though. How did you feel about this tactic being used by the media to discredit and write off the BLM demonstrations? Because this is the same thing being applied to a different situation: the worst or most misguided among an otherwise positive movement being shone a spotlight on in order to derail the conversation and wreck the momentum of the movement. That’s exactly what’s happening here, it’s what happened in 2020. So where do you stand on that
Prominent people in BLM made it clear that they didn’t condone the violence being done by a small group of people.
The Palestinian protests can’t denounce Hamas, a group that murdered over a thousand people in the most brutal ways imaginable. Which is far beyond some looting that occurred during the BLM protests. While prominent people in BLM denounced the looting, we hear basically nothing about people in Palestinian protests denouncing Hamas.
Do you really think that looting is the same thing as massacring villages? If so, you may have lost perspective.
You’re absolutely missing the point of my question. I know they’re not the same. I never said they were the same. What I said was the same was this tactic being used by the media. Highlight the worst of the bunch to discredit the movement. Because that’s what’s happening here. Did you side with the media then? Or did you decry this tactic then? Because you’re encouraging it now.
And as for your points here, you’re likening two disparate movements. An actual organization dealing with issues at home, and a loose group of different people from all walks of life coming together to say what we all see happening halfway across the world needs to stop. At my local demonstrations, there are always Hasidic Jewish people demonstrating alongside, speaking out against Israel’s actions. But you don’t say shit about that, you just pick out the worst example you can find and write off the entire demonstration. And, also, how do you know no one said ‘get the fuck out of here?’ You said they accomplished nothing because these two people were there. You really did write off the entire thing because of these two flags. Based on nothing but this article.
I think you’re missing the point. Looting isn’t comparable to massacring villages and even then, prominent voices in the BLM movement denounced the looting.
That isn’t happening with Palestinian protests.
I’ve seen many images of people cosplaying as Hamas at protests. It’s fairly commonplace. This is not an isolated incident.
You’re somehow still not getting what I’m saying. Are you doing it on purpose? I mean, you have to be.
I dunno man…if you were wandering along marching in solidarity with Germans and the guy next to you was waving a nazi flag would you keep marching? I think the people there made a strong statement