No, the tankies are also most definitely swallowing up the same bullshit because they believe Russia and China to be freer states than the rest of the world.
I mean i don’t think they actually believe them to be freer, i think they don’t care about individual freedom. Whether or not Russia is more free or more repressive doesn’t matter to authoritarians. (Or if anything, they prefer the repression.)
I actually went and asked on Hexbear their opinions about this and tried to dig a bit to understand the logic. I don’t agree with it and I think their logic is cold, brutal and lacking in empathy, but there is a logic.
Essentially, they support Russia critically. This means they agree with any normal person that Russia is a shithole, but it’s a useful shithole that challenges NATO. They see this as a proxy war between NATO and Russia, and the more they can bleed each other the better, especially if it weakens NATO. The civilians who are caught in the middle are acceptable collateral damage according to them.
I’ve also talked to some of these folks, and my strong sense is that they are teenagers who have never been to any of these places, or really understand much about the complexity of global systems
I also get the strong sense that the vast majority are from North America, which greatly limits their perspectives. It’s very easy to see this in simple calculus terms when the war isn’t going on right over the border and has the potential to destroy a sibling country (Moldova, I’m Romanian).
I honestly don’t think that’s the case. This seems to me to be people who have an ideology (fair enough, we all do) but then see the entire world and everything around them through this black and white filter where everything either supports the cause or doesn’t, and anything and everything is justified in support of that.
Why don’t you think it’s the case? The CCP and Kremlin want to take down the current rules-based international system, and using LLMs on social media is an incredibly cheap way to do it.
If you think we’re a big enough or influential enough of a target for moving the needle on public opinion here on lemmy, I have a bridge to sell you :))
I do get where you’re coming from, but I do feel like you’re running from bushes thinking they’re bears.
A lot of American communists supported Stalin. They refused to believe that the anti-Stalin news was anything but American propaganda. When Khrushchev exposed Stalin for what he did in an attempt to try rebuilding the country, many were disillusioned to the point that they left communism. Some remained pro-Soviet but rejected Stalin, some remained communist but rejected the USSR as state capitalism, and some remained pro-Stalin. I’m just pointing that out to make sure that we all remember that people can be all over the place and still justify their positions to themselves.
To me, supporting Putin because he opposes NATO is like supporting Donald Trump because he opposes Biden. There are some accelerationists who literally do that. I personally think it is idiotic, and anyone who does so is a fascist and not a communist. Putin’s homophobia, xenophobia, right wing religious fascism, and misogyny should be more than enough to dissuade any person with a conscience from supporting him. Honestly, I really think it does. I believe that the majority of the “tankies” supporting Putin are right wing accounts sockpuppeting as leftists. No one who supports LGBT rights could support Putin. I think the tankies are the same type of crowd that populated the_donald - people cosplaying a political position until it becomes internalized.
There is an absolutely massive literature in American and Western communism. Most of it predates Putin - at least, predates Putin bring anything other than a mafioso with a superpower to fund his personal wealth. You can read all about the soul searching about actually existing communism vs ideological communism and the moral dilemma that resulted.
But insofar as it’s about opposition to American imperialism or accelerationism, I think that the Trump years should have shown that to be tragically misguided. Putin’s opposition to NATO isn’t helping anyone in the West except for people like Trump and LePen. It’s not like supporting Ho Chi Minh or Mao, and it’s certainly not like supporting Allende, Castro, or Che. It’s like supporting Hitler on the basis of Hitler being anti-British.
There are a lot of pro-putin (and other shitty regime) tankies, that’s really my problem with them. If they were just militant communist types I wouldn’t have too much of an issue with them, I may not agree with them, but I’d at least understand their position, maybe even be somewhat sympathetic in some cases.
When you dig into their reasoning, it’s usually something like they support them because they’re also against the US/NATO/the west, sort of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” kind of deal, but that argument doesn’t really hold water for me, throwing your lot in with someone pulling the kinds of shit Putin does is totally indefensible, even if your plan is to ultimately turn on them after you’ve successfully toppled the west or whatever, you’ve still been supporting or at least turning a blind eye to some pretty horrific shit.
It’s like how the far right tries to gaslight everyone by trying to change the meaning of the word “nazi”. E.g.
“Oh, you call all right wingers nazis!”
“It’s a historical term! Nazis don’t exist anymore!”
etc
Tankies are doing the same with the word “tankie”. Even “militant communists” aren’t tankies – unless they cheer on brutal oppression by authoritarian regimes.
i think it’s relatively clear and obvious that there needs to be a word that describes regimes which systematically inflict violence upon their own civilians via mechanized artillery and the simps who support these regimes,
and that word is ‘tankie’
now, if I had my way, it’d be a different word, which would have served the purpose of freeing up ‘tankie’ for another purpose (a pejorative for people who brainlessly and uncritically gobble up the bullshit of think-tanks) but that’s not the world we live in. In this world, tankie refers to the scenario wherein,
Civilian Population: “We don’t like what’s happening” *peacefully protests and/or elects local leaders The Regime doesn’t like* The Regime: *dispatches tanks and/or shells the Civilian Population with artillery fire to brutalize them into submission or slaughter them if they don’t submit*
Granted, the present usage of “tankie” also carries implications about a given regime’s economic system (which is to imply that the regime’s economic system is Centrally Planned) but frankly that’s a stupid distinction to make when even capitalist regimes will do this to their own civilians too.
Ironically, the “Russian Speaking Civilians” that Russia claimed they were invading to “protect” have suffered greater casualties directly from Russian-fired munitions than they ever had before, so even though they are actually, in fact, UKRAINIAN civilians that they’re murdering, taking them at their word about these victims being Russian civilians would literally make Russia’s actions a tankie move.
By my more utilitarian definition of what constitutes tankie behavior, it also includes the actions of the previous Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko, who launched artillery strikes against the very same Ukrainian civilians back in 2014 (and subsequently had his ass kicked electorally by Zelenskyy on the basis that Zelenskyy was NOT going to be attacking civilians) so… it stopped being ukrainian policy by the time russia invaded. Russia stopped nothing, and on the contrary resumed needless civilian slaughter.
And there are some witless shitstains around the lemmy fediverse who unironically defend this abject fuckery.
(AKA Tankies)
TL;DR: Yes I concur my friend. The definition and usage of Tankie is indeed quite well established, ACTUALLY.
fascist alignment happens on the left - rarely, but it does. And when it does, they are very LOUD, and they unironically believe that ukraine was genociding russians.
deleted by creator
No, the tankies are also most definitely swallowing up the same bullshit because they believe Russia and China to be freer states than the rest of the world.
I mean i don’t think they actually believe them to be freer, i think they don’t care about individual freedom. Whether or not Russia is more free or more repressive doesn’t matter to authoritarians. (Or if anything, they prefer the repression.)
Removed by mod
I actually went and asked on Hexbear their opinions about this and tried to dig a bit to understand the logic. I don’t agree with it and I think their logic is cold, brutal and lacking in empathy, but there is a logic.
Essentially, they support Russia critically. This means they agree with any normal person that Russia is a shithole, but it’s a useful shithole that challenges NATO. They see this as a proxy war between NATO and Russia, and the more they can bleed each other the better, especially if it weakens NATO. The civilians who are caught in the middle are acceptable collateral damage according to them.
I’ve also talked to some of these folks, and my strong sense is that they are teenagers who have never been to any of these places, or really understand much about the complexity of global systems
I also get the strong sense that the vast majority are from North America, which greatly limits their perspectives. It’s very easy to see this in simple calculus terms when the war isn’t going on right over the border and has the potential to destroy a sibling country (Moldova, I’m Romanian).
I have a strong sense that a lot of them aren’t people, they’re CCP LLMs.
I honestly don’t think that’s the case. This seems to me to be people who have an ideology (fair enough, we all do) but then see the entire world and everything around them through this black and white filter where everything either supports the cause or doesn’t, and anything and everything is justified in support of that.
Why don’t you think it’s the case? The CCP and Kremlin want to take down the current rules-based international system, and using LLMs on social media is an incredibly cheap way to do it.
If you think we’re a big enough or influential enough of a target for moving the needle on public opinion here on lemmy, I have a bridge to sell you :))
I do get where you’re coming from, but I do feel like you’re running from bushes thinking they’re bears.
There’s definitely a lot of teens and young adults in those spaces, on both sides.
A lot of American communists supported Stalin. They refused to believe that the anti-Stalin news was anything but American propaganda. When Khrushchev exposed Stalin for what he did in an attempt to try rebuilding the country, many were disillusioned to the point that they left communism. Some remained pro-Soviet but rejected Stalin, some remained communist but rejected the USSR as state capitalism, and some remained pro-Stalin. I’m just pointing that out to make sure that we all remember that people can be all over the place and still justify their positions to themselves.
To me, supporting Putin because he opposes NATO is like supporting Donald Trump because he opposes Biden. There are some accelerationists who literally do that. I personally think it is idiotic, and anyone who does so is a fascist and not a communist. Putin’s homophobia, xenophobia, right wing religious fascism, and misogyny should be more than enough to dissuade any person with a conscience from supporting him. Honestly, I really think it does. I believe that the majority of the “tankies” supporting Putin are right wing accounts sockpuppeting as leftists. No one who supports LGBT rights could support Putin. I think the tankies are the same type of crowd that populated the_donald - people cosplaying a political position until it becomes internalized.
There is an absolutely massive literature in American and Western communism. Most of it predates Putin - at least, predates Putin bring anything other than a mafioso with a superpower to fund his personal wealth. You can read all about the soul searching about actually existing communism vs ideological communism and the moral dilemma that resulted.
But insofar as it’s about opposition to American imperialism or accelerationism, I think that the Trump years should have shown that to be tragically misguided. Putin’s opposition to NATO isn’t helping anyone in the West except for people like Trump and LePen. It’s not like supporting Ho Chi Minh or Mao, and it’s certainly not like supporting Allende, Castro, or Che. It’s like supporting Hitler on the basis of Hitler being anti-British.
Cutting the nose, those fine fellows…
deleted by creator
There are a lot of pro-putin (and other shitty regime) tankies, that’s really my problem with them. If they were just militant communist types I wouldn’t have too much of an issue with them, I may not agree with them, but I’d at least understand their position, maybe even be somewhat sympathetic in some cases.
When you dig into their reasoning, it’s usually something like they support them because they’re also against the US/NATO/the west, sort of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” kind of deal, but that argument doesn’t really hold water for me, throwing your lot in with someone pulling the kinds of shit Putin does is totally indefensible, even if your plan is to ultimately turn on them after you’ve successfully toppled the west or whatever, you’ve still been supporting or at least turning a blind eye to some pretty horrific shit.
Exactly. I’m cool with communists, but fuck Hexbear and also kind of Lemmygrad for spreading authoritarian propaganda.
It’s like how the far right tries to gaslight everyone by trying to change the meaning of the word “nazi”. E.g.
Tankies are doing the same with the word “tankie”. Even “militant communists” aren’t tankies – unless they cheer on brutal oppression by authoritarian regimes.
i think it’s relatively clear and obvious that there needs to be a word that describes regimes which systematically inflict violence upon their own civilians via mechanized artillery and the simps who support these regimes,
and that word is ‘tankie’
now, if I had my way, it’d be a different word, which would have served the purpose of freeing up ‘tankie’ for another purpose (a pejorative for people who brainlessly and uncritically gobble up the bullshit of think-tanks) but that’s not the world we live in. In this world, tankie refers to the scenario wherein,
Granted, the present usage of “tankie” also carries implications about a given regime’s economic system (which is to imply that the regime’s economic system is Centrally Planned) but frankly that’s a stupid distinction to make when even capitalist regimes will do this to their own civilians too.
Ironically, the “Russian Speaking Civilians” that Russia claimed they were invading to “protect” have suffered greater casualties directly from Russian-fired munitions than they ever had before, so even though they are actually, in fact, UKRAINIAN civilians that they’re murdering, taking them at their word about these victims being Russian civilians would literally make Russia’s actions a tankie move.
By my more utilitarian definition of what constitutes tankie behavior, it also includes the actions of the previous Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko, who launched artillery strikes against the very same Ukrainian civilians back in 2014 (and subsequently had his ass kicked electorally by Zelenskyy on the basis that Zelenskyy was NOT going to be attacking civilians) so… it stopped being ukrainian policy by the time russia invaded. Russia stopped nothing, and on the contrary resumed needless civilian slaughter.
And there are some witless shitstains around the lemmy fediverse who unironically defend this abject fuckery.
(AKA Tankies)
TL;DR: Yes I concur my friend. The definition and usage of Tankie is indeed quite well established, ACTUALLY.
tankies and extreme conservatives are the same kind of stupid and both deserve mockery
deleted by creator
fascist alignment happens on the left - rarely, but it does. And when it does, they are very LOUD, and they unironically believe that ukraine was genociding russians.
deleted by creator