This is just my take on things. Feel free to agree or disagree.
Woke nowadays has a different meaning depending on where you are on the political spectrum, but I think most gamers think of it as corporate virtue signaling with often counterintuitive “not actually progressiveness” and ends up just stereotyping minorities. For example the DLC character in Kill the Justice League is an old lesbian stereotype and rarely represents what modern lesbians actually look like. In fact lesbians don’t have to “look like” anything, but then you wouldn’t know they’re lesbians, and the companies don’t understand how to do this.
Gamers can tell when a company is trying to “be progressive” while also having no idea how to do it properly, and it all comes off as incredibly cringe (Like DragonAge: The Veilguard) But when the developers are capable of telling a story, and integrate their modernized views into it, while making a great game (like Baldur’s Gate 3) it no longer is “woke”, just great.
Games with progressive views have existed for a very long time, and have generally been well received. But they never really started this “fake progressiveness corporate virtue signaling” until recently and I think gamers really only care about this happening. So it isn’t about and never was about the political messages themselves. And proof of this lies in the fact that the same people who complain about woke games also complain about censorship in other countries (like the Arcane lesbian relationship being erased in the Chinese release, or game companies logos not having rainbows only in middle eastern countries).
I know a lot of people see in black and white, and you’re either pro woke slop, or you’re racist/sexist/transphobic. But reality is that most gamers (even those who complain about wokeness) actually are progressives. They actually don’t care if someone is gay or trans or not. They only care about how that is portrayed, how belittling the message is, and how honest it is.
If that’s the case, then they’re just criticizing bad writing, like all of us are.
But it’s not necessarily the case. There was an adult animation that came out endorsed by Ben Shapiro that was meant to be all about conservative values. To show they’re not backwards, the protagonist has one gay friend. And, from that alone, the target base complained about the show being “woke”.
So the term is both wrapping a long way around towards the simple term “bad writing” and instantly called upon anytime demographics include minorities. I’d go for the Occam’s Razor explanation. It’s just hate.
If that’s the case, then they’re just criticizing bad writing, like all of us are.
They’re criticising a specific type of bad writing. There are many ways a story can be written poorly. “Bad writing” isn’t being honest about why and how the writing is bad.
That said, there are definitely far right people who regard well written minority characters to be woke. I understand the user above to be explaining that that’s not everyone who uses the term, and I agree.
This, the kind of gamer who make lists of woke games that you shouldn’t play, or go on review bombing a game for been woke do not have the nuance to criticise the bad writing. They follow the fascist strategy of offering a simple solution to a more complex problem, ignoring the real causes of that problem.
Bad writing can be caused by many things but I’m sure that the mass layoffs and the fucked up development cycle are a major cause of these problems.
Agreed, and I feel like the big issue here is there are two versions of “anti-woke” in gaming.
The first is gamers that want real progressive storylines that tie into the story well, and are critical of corporations trying to shoehorn random aspects of culture to be “woke” which fall flat because it’s just virtue signaling.
But it’s been conflated with the sort of 4chan style mentality of “gamer men” who criticize anything, even historically accurate stories who call a game woke just because it doesn’t fit their favorite narrative of muscular white dude or scantily clad woman being the protagonist.
An example of this is Assassin’s Creed Shadows. The game should by no means be labelled “woke” by anybody. It’s telling a dramatized tale of a real person that existed within feudal Japan who was by all measure a black samurai. However the second group in my description above has taken it upon themselves to criticize the studio for “forcing a narrative” or whatever which simply isn’t true. It’s a real person, from history, and they are telling a video game version of his story.
It’s annoying that the improper “wokeness” criticism there gets conflated with true criticism of studios adding barely fleshed out token elements of “inclusion” that by and large benefit nobody but instead detract from titles.
Absolutely this. I can only speak for myself, and I know that some folks are so starved for representation that they are happy with anything and that’s fine, but for me poor representation is just as bad as none at all.
I’m a guy married to a guy, and I do like to see queer characters and same sex romance options. But playing DA: Origin and crushing on Alastair, only to have the option of Zevran… It kinda feels like the games is telling me “gay men are campy and promiscuous, a sensitive and strong guy like Alistair is clearly heterosexual”. It didn’t make me feel included or represented, quite the opposite.
Obviously, times change, and sometimes these clumsy first steps are how we get to somewhere better. But as well as disappointing me, I understand why awkward ‘woke’ representation rubs people the wrong way. If I as a queer man find the gay character tokenistic, underdeveloped and kinda annoying then it doesn’t surprise me that other folks would too. And being willing to say “this is good representation, but that is shallow box ticking” would help us all get to better place.
Personally I’d rather woke slop to straight slop - at least it’s clumsily including different narratives, rather than just clumsily reinforcing the same old narratives.
Obviously I would rather no slop, and I would rather artful représentations of all characters, but writing is hard - even moreso when you’ve got producers, investors, and a committee working as editors.
I think most of the criticism about “wokeness” is unwarranted. I don’t know of any video game or movie that has been ruined because of “wokeness”.
Is Suicide Squad a bad video game? Probably. I haven’t played it myself.
Is Suicide Squad bad because the DLC has an old tired lesbian stereotype? No, I don’t think so. Even if it was a good game, I don’t think it would’ve mattered much.
It’s kind of like Jar Jar Binks. People use him as a scapegoat for why Episode I is bad. It’s a character who’s easy to attack, but he’s far from the reason why anyone would think Episode I is a bad movie. They would still dislike the movie even if he had been removed.
People are often good at telling when something is bad, but rarely understand why it’s bad.
like the Arcane lesbian relationship being erased in the Chinese release, or game companies logos not having rainbows only in middle eastern countries
A mod to one of the Spiderman games got removed from Nexus Mods because it activated the flags from the Saudi release of the game that override the pride flags in other releases, which got people discussing how serious these companies are about progressive ideals if they’re only selectively included. Of course it feels like it’s only tangentially attached to the content: it is, by design, and you can easily prove it.
That’s what people mean when they say it’s forced.
You want to write a gay character? Do it, but stop half-assing it because it won’t sell in China. Do it right or fuck off.
Your first source is a costume-designer with a very obvious agenda talking about European history. She sources little of her statements, some of them with actual pieces of fiction (including anachronistic art).
Your second source basically amounts to “contemporary writers didn’t say there weren’t Africans in Europe *wink*”. It’s written like your typical ancient aliens stuff.
The third describes more the spread of influence than the actual populace, and is written by Runoko Rashidi, an afrocentrist “historian” who liked to claim historical figures were black in spite of when evidence to the contrary existed. These folks are colloquially known as “hoteps” in some circles.
Obviously given the nature of humans, cultures, and empires, it is likely some amount of black Africans ended up in Europe. That said, given historical records as understood by actual historians, we have reason to believe there were not many of them. Why does it even matter though? What would black Africans being in Europe even prove?
I disagree that the first source has an agenda, it seems more that she’s just enthusiastically describing her subject matter. She cites other scholars and artwork, which isn’t necessarily anachronistic as it was made at that time. I’d say the same about the second source.
For the last source, maybe that person had a pov to sell so it does make them less reliable, but if other historical artifacts or sources prove them right, then overall point of this remains the same.
The reason I brought it up was because someone said colored POC didn’t make sense in a medieval Europe game setting. I agree that there were probably less of them, but including the presence of such people in a game setting is just reality. Why is that such an issue for people? Those people need to get over it.
Almost only merchants and so on traveled, I guess.
But basically people didn’t even go to the nearest town that often, so in the rural areas there were no black people, and if, it was a very rare occasion that would have been documented
This is just my take on things. Feel free to agree or disagree.
Woke nowadays has a different meaning depending on where you are on the political spectrum, but I think most gamers think of it as corporate virtue signaling with often counterintuitive “not actually progressiveness” and ends up just stereotyping minorities. For example the DLC character in Kill the Justice League is an old lesbian stereotype and rarely represents what modern lesbians actually look like. In fact lesbians don’t have to “look like” anything, but then you wouldn’t know they’re lesbians, and the companies don’t understand how to do this.
Gamers can tell when a company is trying to “be progressive” while also having no idea how to do it properly, and it all comes off as incredibly cringe (Like DragonAge: The Veilguard) But when the developers are capable of telling a story, and integrate their modernized views into it, while making a great game (like Baldur’s Gate 3) it no longer is “woke”, just great.
Games with progressive views have existed for a very long time, and have generally been well received. But they never really started this “fake progressiveness corporate virtue signaling” until recently and I think gamers really only care about this happening. So it isn’t about and never was about the political messages themselves. And proof of this lies in the fact that the same people who complain about woke games also complain about censorship in other countries (like the Arcane lesbian relationship being erased in the Chinese release, or game companies logos not having rainbows only in middle eastern countries).
I know a lot of people see in black and white, and you’re either pro woke slop, or you’re racist/sexist/transphobic. But reality is that most gamers (even those who complain about wokeness) actually are progressives. They actually don’t care if someone is gay or trans or not. They only care about how that is portrayed, how belittling the message is, and how honest it is.
If that’s the case, then they’re just criticizing bad writing, like all of us are.
But it’s not necessarily the case. There was an adult animation that came out endorsed by Ben Shapiro that was meant to be all about conservative values. To show they’re not backwards, the protagonist has one gay friend. And, from that alone, the target base complained about the show being “woke”.
So the term is both wrapping a long way around towards the simple term “bad writing” and instantly called upon anytime demographics include minorities. I’d go for the Occam’s Razor explanation. It’s just hate.
They’re criticising a specific type of bad writing. There are many ways a story can be written poorly. “Bad writing” isn’t being honest about why and how the writing is bad.
That said, there are definitely far right people who regard well written minority characters to be woke. I understand the user above to be explaining that that’s not everyone who uses the term, and I agree.
the post you replied to brought up a counter-example… but is it really?
i think it probably is yet another example of “poorly written character exists only to be gay”
so basically just reinforcing the point GP made
This, the kind of gamer who make lists of woke games that you shouldn’t play, or go on review bombing a game for been woke do not have the nuance to criticise the bad writing. They follow the fascist strategy of offering a simple solution to a more complex problem, ignoring the real causes of that problem.
Bad writing can be caused by many things but I’m sure that the mass layoffs and the fucked up development cycle are a major cause of these problems.
Agreed, and I feel like the big issue here is there are two versions of “anti-woke” in gaming.
The first is gamers that want real progressive storylines that tie into the story well, and are critical of corporations trying to shoehorn random aspects of culture to be “woke” which fall flat because it’s just virtue signaling.
But it’s been conflated with the sort of 4chan style mentality of “gamer men” who criticize anything, even historically accurate stories who call a game woke just because it doesn’t fit their favorite narrative of muscular white dude or scantily clad woman being the protagonist.
An example of this is Assassin’s Creed Shadows. The game should by no means be labelled “woke” by anybody. It’s telling a dramatized tale of a real person that existed within feudal Japan who was by all measure a black samurai. However the second group in my description above has taken it upon themselves to criticize the studio for “forcing a narrative” or whatever which simply isn’t true. It’s a real person, from history, and they are telling a video game version of his story.
It’s annoying that the improper “wokeness” criticism there gets conflated with true criticism of studios adding barely fleshed out token elements of “inclusion” that by and large benefit nobody but instead detract from titles.
Absolutely this. I can only speak for myself, and I know that some folks are so starved for representation that they are happy with anything and that’s fine, but for me poor representation is just as bad as none at all.
I’m a guy married to a guy, and I do like to see queer characters and same sex romance options. But playing DA: Origin and crushing on Alastair, only to have the option of Zevran… It kinda feels like the games is telling me “gay men are campy and promiscuous, a sensitive and strong guy like Alistair is clearly heterosexual”. It didn’t make me feel included or represented, quite the opposite.
Obviously, times change, and sometimes these clumsy first steps are how we get to somewhere better. But as well as disappointing me, I understand why awkward ‘woke’ representation rubs people the wrong way. If I as a queer man find the gay character tokenistic, underdeveloped and kinda annoying then it doesn’t surprise me that other folks would too. And being willing to say “this is good representation, but that is shallow box ticking” would help us all get to better place.
Personally I’d rather woke slop to straight slop - at least it’s clumsily including different narratives, rather than just clumsily reinforcing the same old narratives.
Obviously I would rather no slop, and I would rather artful représentations of all characters, but writing is hard - even moreso when you’ve got producers, investors, and a committee working as editors.
Also slop meamd the industry is at least not actively hostile to my existence. There are much worse fates than being pandered to and patronized
I think most of the criticism about “wokeness” is unwarranted. I don’t know of any video game or movie that has been ruined because of “wokeness”.
Is Suicide Squad a bad video game? Probably. I haven’t played it myself.
Is Suicide Squad bad because the DLC has an old tired lesbian stereotype? No, I don’t think so. Even if it was a good game, I don’t think it would’ve mattered much.
It’s kind of like Jar Jar Binks. People use him as a scapegoat for why Episode I is bad. It’s a character who’s easy to attack, but he’s far from the reason why anyone would think Episode I is a bad movie. They would still dislike the movie even if he had been removed.
People are often good at telling when something is bad, but rarely understand why it’s bad.
A mod to one of the Spiderman games got removed from Nexus Mods because it activated the flags from the Saudi release of the game that override the pride flags in other releases, which got people discussing how serious these companies are about progressive ideals if they’re only selectively included. Of course it feels like it’s only tangentially attached to the content: it is, by design, and you can easily prove it.
That’s what people mean when they say it’s forced.
You want to write a gay character? Do it, but stop half-assing it because it won’t sell in China. Do it right or fuck off.
True that.
I even found it very funny when they accused kingdom come: deliverance of being racist because no black characters were in the game.
The setting is fucking medieval! There were no black people in Europe back then.
On the other hand I only know some Netflix series where they add all characters of the lbqt+ spectrum but give them no story or any meanings to that.
In general, there’s almost always an exception which disproves any such rule. People across history have lived all sorts of lives.
https://www.simon-hartman.com/post/the-presence-of-africans-in-european-history
https://publicmedievalist.com/uncovering-african/
https://atlantablackstar.com/2014/06/01/moors-saints-knights-kings-african-presence-medieval-renaissance-europe/
in this case i think we can all tell that “no” means “practically none” not like there was some law of physics stopping it
It’s practically wrong, though
Yeah, but that’s not going to stop the anti-woke crowd from Um AkShUaLlY-ing the situation to try to pretend it’s not just some racist dog whistle.
Your first source is a costume-designer with a very obvious agenda talking about European history. She sources little of her statements, some of them with actual pieces of fiction (including anachronistic art).
Your second source basically amounts to “contemporary writers didn’t say there weren’t Africans in Europe *wink*”. It’s written like your typical ancient aliens stuff.
The third describes more the spread of influence than the actual populace, and is written by Runoko Rashidi, an afrocentrist “historian” who liked to claim historical figures were black in spite of when evidence to the contrary existed. These folks are colloquially known as “hoteps” in some circles.
Obviously given the nature of humans, cultures, and empires, it is likely some amount of black Africans ended up in Europe. That said, given historical records as understood by actual historians, we have reason to believe there were not many of them. Why does it even matter though? What would black Africans being in Europe even prove?
I disagree that the first source has an agenda, it seems more that she’s just enthusiastically describing her subject matter. She cites other scholars and artwork, which isn’t necessarily anachronistic as it was made at that time. I’d say the same about the second source.
Here’s some more art work being described. The source is approachable and meant to encourage further reading for anyone interested, https://www.thehumanityarchive.com/articles/black-people-medieval-europe
For the last source, maybe that person had a pov to sell so it does make them less reliable, but if other historical artifacts or sources prove them right, then overall point of this remains the same.
The reason I brought it up was because someone said colored POC didn’t make sense in a medieval Europe game setting. I agree that there were probably less of them, but including the presence of such people in a game setting is just reality. Why is that such an issue for people? Those people need to get over it.
Here’s more scholarly resources https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-9780199730414/obo-9780199730414-0326.xml
https://journalofsocialsciences.org/vol6no1/blacks-in-the-middle-ages---what-about-race-and-racism-in-the-past-literary-and-art-historical-reflections/
And a more approachable one, https://www.open.edu/openlearn/history-the-arts/history/deconstructing-the-moors-black-presence-the-united-kingdom-and-during-the-tudor-period
Wow, so nobody traveled across the Mediterranean until the modern era? Gosh!
Yes and no.
Almost only merchants and so on traveled, I guess.
But basically people didn’t even go to the nearest town that often, so in the rural areas there were no black people, and if, it was a very rare occasion that would have been documented