- cross-posted to:
- balatro@lemm.ee
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this is starting to be horseshit. Every windows computer has a version of fucking solitare on it , there are other card based games that don’t get this treatment, and the lootboxes are actual gambling.
I thought at the start it was a type of beurocratical problem, but it’s been too long.
Not entirely sure about the European PEGI, but the American ESRB is funded by the same companies that it regulates. It was created after the outcry about violent games and was the industry self-regulating to avoid the government getting more involved.
It is a lobby group for the industry, for better and in this case very much for worse.
I assume PEGI is little different.
PEGI and many other groups are private groups. They’re not an authority of any form. They’re not associated with government, public regulation, or public election. They’re a group of people that create their own standards outside of the ISO or any actual regulation representing the public.
Some countries do have actual public systems, but many just have these private groups that know best.
They’re private groups that do the ratings but ESRB is enforced by laws in some Canadian provinces for instance and PEGI is enforced by law in some European countries. They do have a de facto authority in those places as a publisher can’t just decide to disregard their ratings and sell to minors anyway or something.
In Austria PEGI is “enforced” in Vienna while USK is “enforced” in Salzburg (and Germany, the reason why they buy all their games here). And PEGI might be shit, but USK is a million times worse.
USK rated Balatro with a minimum age of 12 because of “elements resembling gambling”. Sounds more reasonable to me than the PEGI rating.
German Authorities (technically not USK but USK is affiliated to them completely banned Wolfenstein, Dying Light, etc. Not 18+ or whatever it’s straight up illegal to promote or openly sell them in Germany.
This is all well and true, but it’s important to note that these organizations exist as a sidestep to regulation, they are formed by industry insiders as a promise to the regulators that they will be honest about how they rate games (or movies or music) so that the government doesn’t actually get involved and do it’s job.
It’s a form of regulatory capture that allows the industry itself to decide what is harmful to us.
It’s basically the definition of conflict of interest.
To clarify: the ESRB is the rating arm. The ESA that runs it? That’s the lobbying arm.
In fairness, I would much rather that than governments directly controlling access, creating an additional form of direct censorship.
Not saying what we have now is great or anything though. I’m not exactly defending it.
That’s basically why the ESRB was created, it was “Self-Regulate, or we’re just going to ban 80% of games on the market as a scapegoat for Columbine!”
Luigi Mangione played Among Us, an assassination game!
I largely agree, but the interests have gotten misaligned. Back then it was the threat of regulation which changed things up, I think the governments should do a little more of that.
Eeeeh, at least then there would theoretically be public accountability. The FCC has limited censorship power that they’re generally unobjectionable with.
I’m honestly more concerned with the censorship from private enterprises than with government consorship currently. Less accountability and less recourse.
It also really only becomes censorship if the rating system is used to prohibit speech. If we instead made it more like the nutritional guidelines on food it could instead give more of a content breakdown than setting an arbitrary age.
i got curious and looks like PEGI is somewhat similar at least. The ISFE is a self-regulating/co-regulating (w/e that means) body. There seem to be some kinda independent audits but… Looks like they don’t audit so good, if this article is evidence
but… Looks like they don’t audit so good, if this article is evidence
That’s the whole issue with it being a lobby group. It makes them a ton of money, so they are incentivised against making a rating for it because that would draw more attention/limit sales.
And that’s where the whole government lobbying part comes in.
Right i was just clarifying what i learned about PEGIs setup, that it seems similar to the US’s ESRB. I’m a yank and didn’t know before looking either
did you just compare solitaire to gambling?
It’s as much related to gambling as Balatro is.
That would be the point, yes. Balatro has cards and chips, but chips are just there for keeping points. If Balatro is 18+ for gambling imagery, then so should Solitaire. That would be stupid, so Balatro shouldn’t get it, either.
I think the important note is it’s not just the cards in Balatro. Is it right? Not in my opinion. You have to admit tho, that it uses waaaaay more gambling imagery (you make antes for fuck’s sake)
The term Ante in the game is used instead of “round” or “level”. It’s a measure of how far you’ve gotten. Each “ante” is made up of three “stakes”, point totals you need to beat in a set number of hands played and cards discarded.
There’s no aspect of choosing how much you risk, of “ante-ing up”, or how much you stake. You either beat the points goal (called “chips”) or you lose. There’s no playing of your hand against other hands, bluffing about how good your hand may be to convince others to fold, etc. It’s just you against the score goal. If you beat it faster than the amount of hands you’re given to work with you get extra rewards.
The game has no elements where you stake chips for rewards or anything like that. It borrows basic elements of scoring mechanics from poker, and uses a lot of poker terms for other purposes, but the closest part to gambling is the ability to buy random card packs between rounds (to customize your deck instead of just having the standard 52 card deck).
In between rounds you have access to buy various things to add further modifiers to your scoring, and to adjust the composition of your deck in order to make getting specific combinations more likely.
You can learn most of this in about 5 minutes with the demo, or by taking some time to watch someone else play on youtube.
Minor correction, the three stages in an “ante” are the “blinds”. The game instead uses “stake” to describe its ‘ascension’ system (a common mechanic in roguelixe games, where going to a higher ascension/“stake” adds difficulty modifiers to the game, for those who don’t know what I mean by that).
You literally do not make antes in Balatro, in any way.
You should know that you’re talking about before drawing conclusions.
I haven’t played or watched Balataro but from the description on steam
You’re going to need every edge you can get in order to reach the boss blind, beat the final ante and secure victory.
Unless ante here is referring to something else it seems it does have them?
“Antes” are what Balatro calls its levels. Each level consists of 3 stages, which the game calls “blinds” (small/big/boss).
In poker, you don’t “beat” an ante, it’s part of what you bet. You also don’t “reach” blinds, nor is there such a thing as a “boss blind” in poker. And the word “bet” or any synonym should be pretty conspicuous by its absence in Balatro’s description. There is no gambling without betting/wagering, after all.
So yes, if you’re familiar with poker, that description should make it obvious that the words have different meanings in the game than they do in poker.
The only actual ‘mechanic’ that’s actually the same in Balatro as in poker is what comprises the different hands, and their relative value. And even then, there are also hands in Balatro that don’t exist in poker at all (five of a kind, flush house, etc.).
Firstly you could read user names before going off, I was simply asking a question that Im unwilling to buy the game to answer.
Do you know what gambling imagery entails? It doesn’t have to be how antes actually are used in poker for it to be gambling imagery.
A game just has to show characters gambling for it to be gambling imagery. It doesn’t even have to be anything more than a level in a casino.
A game just has to show characters gambling for it to be gambling imagery.
Okay. Well, Balatro doesn’t do that–no gambling of any kind happens in the game.
So, what’s your point, exactly?
The game is literally made up of gambling imagery. From cards to chips to terms, the whole fuckin 9 yards. MY POINT IS ITS NOT GAMBLING, ITS GAMBLING IMAGERY.
I prefaced the whole fuckin statement I started with with saying it’s bullshit. DESPITE THAT BULLSHIT THE LABEL IS NOT INCORRECT. I hope you can stop being fucking obtuse and see my point after I’ve rephrased it multiple times.
It’s near the line, I agree, I see your point, but it’s just the terminology and no gambling mechanics. You don’t set the ante, you just play. They could change the name ante to level and it would be the same. It’s not like you look at your stuff and decide how much you’re willing to risk. (You could argue skipping blinds is this sort of risk analysis like gambling but that’s hardly unique to Balatro.) There is no benefit from stopping earlier because if you lose on ante one or lose on ante seven it’s the same outcome. Also, if you choose to restart one ante one or ante seven it’s the same outcome. Because it’s just a score keeping mechanism. Nothing more.
Agreed, gambling doesn’t have to be for money or even anything tangibly real.
But it has to be for something. And in Balatro, there simply isn’t any gambling. You never wager anything to win anything based on that wager. All you have are points, and you can neither wager them, nor lose them in any way, chance-based or otherwise.
There is zero gambling in Balatro.
He probably forgot to funnel millions of dollars to non-profits and businesses adjacent to PEGI decisionmakers and their family members. Rookie mistake.
They haven’t understood the game at all, I wonder if they even looked at it for more than two minutes
Run game > see playing cards and poker chips > close > PEGI 18
They’re not looking into blatant gambling in AAA titles, of course they won’t take a closer look into an indie game. They’re completely useless.
Ah, but there are also tarot cards, which is spooky Occult voodoo magic. Balatro backwards might spell “Satan is Lord” in some ancient druidic script.
Praise Otralab!
* ortalaB
It can’t be that easy. PEGI says that games containing gambling (real money or not) are rated with PEGI 12 to 18. So there must be something else to the game that led to this rating.
or…you know… they’re just morons.
Maybe winning a game award while being solo developer studio, it feels like this to me
Windows comes bundled with solitaire. How is it allowed in schools?
I think the current microsoft version of solitaire has microtransactions and ads so is actually significantly worse
They added micro transactions and ads to fucking solitaire? How have I not heard about this till now…
This isn’t really new. Solitaire has had ads for over a decade now since Windows 8, and there is a monthly premium subscription to remove them. As I understand it they also don’t show during offline play, but might be wrong about that.
Offline play? It’s SOLITAIRE. Offline play should be the ONLY play, by default.
Feeling like I took crazy pills this morning…
If it makes you feel better/worse, the subscription is shared across multiple games. I was playing a bunch of Microsoft Jigsaw at one point (don’t ask), and while you could play as much as you’d like for free, the fact that they squeezed ads into it to extort you (or more likely, clueless older people) really cheapened the whole thing.
They had a lot of pretty photos which were probably not free, but come on, this is Microsoft, they have the money. I think this should’ve been bundled with Windows for free. I truly think a lot of people might even look back on it fondly the way they do with a lot of the older bundled-in games. We will take for granted how much the default option with any sort of technology around us has an impact on us as kids. Maybe not everyone, but not everyone loved pinball or inkball.
Actual textbook enshittification: what was once a space for a nice default thing to fall back on if you were bored and had their operating system has now become an “opportunity” to “generate more business.” Very sad. Computers are impossibly wonderful machines, everyone who has access to one should be able to enjoy a few basic things, packed in, for free - with no strings attached (looking at you candy crush).
I’m sure there’s a nice free or paid jigsaw game made with love out there that could satisfy that itch I felt that one week in 2020. Hm.
Edit: I have now redownloaded Microsoft Jigsaw and might just expand this comment into a full post/rant about the state of modern consumer software through the lens of Microsoft’s current casual games suite
Damn I have fond memories of those games back in xp and 7 era but ig enshitification is evitable when it comes to Microsoft
There are daily challenges and things like that which is what I would refer to as online play. Not that crazy imho of you’ve put thousands of hours into vanilla solitaire that you may welcome something to spice it up.
iirc it’s a subscription too
Why, how, the fuck do you add microtransactions to fucking solitaire?!
Step 1: Add ads into [insert app of choice here] that are really annoying
Step 2: Make people pay to get rid of them. Bonus points if it’s a subscription
Step 3: People hate your app but it’s the one that’s installed by default so they use it anyway
Step 4: Profit
The fact that this business model earns moneu rather than car bombs annoys me.
It’s not really micro transactions as much as it is a monthly subscription to remove ads.
Its fucking solitaire you can play the old version from windows 95 online for free. This is beyond fucking stupid.
If that satisfies you then all the power to you.
Im a Utilitarian to a fault, of course I think the windows 95 version is just as valid. I wear everything down to scrap.
Real question, why wouldn’t the win95/xp version satisfy someone? Isn’t it the same thing with simpler graphics?
I can’t speak for other people, I don’t even play solitaire. Realistically, I imagine most people get new PCs with newer Windows versions and play whatever solitaire is on there.
You’re being funny, right? Tell me you’re just kidding
I can’t see any news that you can ‘pay to remove ads’ but lots of “how do i remove ads in solitaire” with settings instructions or registry edits so i think op is only half right
Jesus I’m so glad I moved to Linux
MTX and ads? Then it’s clearly only 3+ and should be allowed lol
I also don’t think it comes pre-installed anymore, you have to get it through Microsoft’s meme store that no one uses.
Give the kids Linux! Build a generation of superusers!
Supertux depicts imagery of speeding, misdemeanor and felony. +18 Age rating for Torvalds and all of his derivatives.
Because you don’t place bets on your solitaire hand.
Maybe look into the game being discussed even a little before commenting on it.
I did. I’m not going to go buy it for this though. They literally use poker terms, poker imagery, and real poker hands. Saying it’s just because there’s cards involved is disingenuous.
And yet you say it’s cause of “gambling”. So you’re either lying about looking into it or lying about what you saw.
This is all on their steam page dude.
So lying about looking into it. Got it.
You could use the same for majong or pachinko like games like Peggle. The issue is the actual gambling, not just the game elements or risk, reward, and points going up. Loot boxes are 10× worse.
No, we know that stuff that glorifies addictive activities can recruit or cause relapse as well.
Fuck PEGI, their ratings always sucked and weren’t useful at all. Full blown swearing? 13+. One cigar through 500 hours of gameplay? Adults only. Never cared, never will.
Violence and gore? 13+. Some boobs? Adults only.
Killing good, love bad.
If anybody knows about love it’s rimjob_rainer.
And people pretend that only American ratings systems pull this kind of bullshit.
I wish lawmakers had some balls on this subject. If there’s gambling, they should have to register as a gambling company and comply with all the other restrictions on gambling advertisements in each jurisdiction.
Hngh. Balatro already had a bunch of hassle on Switch eShop due to the PEGI ratings change.
Earlier, Nintendo somehow got a PEGI 12 rating for 51 Worldwide Games, which includes poker and blackjack. I wonder what they argued to avoid the 18 rating. “Sure, this compilation has poker and blackjack, but it’s not like we made it fun.” (It’s adequate but compared to Balatro it’s very much a non-frills experience.)
I believe 51 Games came out right before the stricter PEGI policy. Same year at least. The whole thing is very silly.
“sure our game has gambling elements, but we’re Nintendo so shut the fuck up and give us a better rating because you’re a private company in the business of giving ratings”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46MQ1ZMZ-l4
3 and older game.
Gotta love how they saved the literal slot machine for a minute in to the video so it wouldn’t be too obvious.
Just right up front with the card pack gambling mechanic.
Why is he still using Twitter? Does he want a bunch of Nazis replying to him?
Because, unfortunately, millions of people still use it. If you’re selling a product, it’s in your best interest to have as much social media presence as possible.
Also, it’s better to have an official presence on those platforms so others can’t impersonate you as easily.
Nah. You either do the right thing and lose a little exposure or you stick with it and accept that you’re a part of Elon Musk’s political machine.
Blue Sky is a perfectly viable alternative. Hell half the podcast I listen to now rattle off their blue sky now instead of Twitter. The seas are shifting and there is plenty to gain over there. Leave Twitter. Blue Sky is not perfect by any stretch but it’s a hell of a lot better.
If you’ve ever made a thing that took so much time that it has to be your job, and earn you money, you’d likely have a different view. If you’re ignoring a percentage of your target market because they’re on a platform you don’t like, then your project might fail, and you don’t get to keep your house.
Plenty of people make plenty of money and have plenty good careers without ever making a twitter account.
Sometimes doing the right thing is hard. Twitter became worth leaving a long time ago but anyone who is still on after the changes over the last 6-9 months just doesn’t value their time enough. It’s a self-respect issue. Like people who still moderate on Reddit after Steve and co made it crystal clear how much disdain they hold for their moderators and users 2 summers ago.
There are very few people/businesses/things that will fail simply because they leave twitter - you are being dramatic and you know it. And let’s also not fail to realize that if your life or livelihood depends on Twitter to succeed, you are tied to a really sick horse and one day you’re just going to fail. You better look for a second option starting today. But again, there are very few people who absolutely depend on Twitter in the first place. To argue it’s that critical is ridiculous.
If your stated downside to still using Twitter is that it’s a waste of time, is that invalidated if your posting tool posts to all of your socials with one click? Like most professional social media users that have to maintain a bunch of channels with the same content?
Also, who is being dramatic about how important it is to be on or off twitter?
also, who is being dramatic blah blah I’m a contrarian
The dude above me literally said that if you don’t use Twitter you might lose your house. Are you being serious right now?
Ok… but his thing can actually happen… your version of the bad things that can happen for still also posting news to twitter is all imaginary stuff that doesn’t happen in real life. Being upset about the direction Twitter and Reddit took and are taking is a totally valid, and honestly the objectively correct position to have about it. But adding in imaginary penalties for using it is not.
Then there should also be a version of the post on Mastodon, and this post should be a screenshot of that one.
Twitter is by far the larger platform, small independent creators have to work to promote their game on every platform they can if they want to. The moral high ground of not using undesirable social media sites is nice, but isn’t fair to people who are partially dependent on those platforms to make a living.
I’ve seen several small creators say they get 10 times the engagement on Bluesky. That includes sales through promo links, which can’t be faked. It’s becoming clear that X’s numbers are mostly illusory at this point.
Also, the simple fact is that there is no reason that any entity promoting their product has to choose any of these platforms over the other–you can just post to all of them, every single one that has enough users to be worth posting to.
Twitter can reach various community from variety of region, like English Asia Twitter.
Entire fediverse is still mostly Western community.
Reminds me of that Australian law that was proposed to make anything with a relation to casino games Restricted 18 but merely mature for exploitative slot machine loot box mechanics.
I haven’t seen Loot Boxes in a game in awhile, I kinda prefer those to FOMO…
I think the perfect system is you earn Loot Boxes by playing that can contain anything, but you can buy the specific things you want at any time, the boxes themselves are unlocked through gameplay.
Heroes of the Storm did this, and god I miss that game.
I wish DBD did it
HOTS 2.0 did so much good, man. It’s a shame the game’s basically dead. Was a lot of fun to play with my brother
I realised that what brought me back to League was Wild Rift. Maybe of HOTS had a “mobile” adaptation, I’d come back. Just not much (if at all) a PC gamer nowadays
There were rumors Microsoft were going to revive it, which lead to people playing the game, which lead to it getting balance patches again… but no new content drops sadly
Soon™
Sounds about right. I’d seen “slot machines” (we call em poker machines or “the pokies”) more times than I can remember before I was 18.
“the pokies”
You ever Google that?
No, why?
let’s just do like all parents buying the last Call of Duty to their 10-year-old and just don’t give a fuck about PEGI.
The thing is, this is likely going to affect their sales to some degree.
As a parent, you may have age lock on your child’s account, or search games by rating, or just not know what this game is when asked to buy it but judging by rating.I don’t know how significant of an impact that is, but it’s unfair.
I think they’ve done them a favour in a way. If this was day one then it might hurt them but they’re past the point of like 90% of their sales I bet, and now pegi looking like incompetent dinosaurs is just a free second wave of social media exposure
Might as well go all in on that new rating.
Balatro 1.5 Patch Notes.
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All the Jokers now hang dong.
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Big naturals Queens are worth double.
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NBA 2K literally had slot machine in it. System is corrupt.
Are all game rating systems just complete and utter garbage? Dare you to find a good one.
The ESRB isn’t awful, it’s not perfect of course, but I think it’s pretty dang good for what it is.
I mean the point of all rating systems in the US was fear of government regulation of content and having to fight that particular legal battle. It basically exists because moral busybodies were upset about Night Trap, Mortal Kombat and Doom.
Critiquing Doge on steam
I’m hopelessly addicted to gatcha. When I saw this I bought Balatro.
