I have been thinking a lot since the election about what could explain the incredibly high numbers of Americans who seem incapable of critical thinking, or really any kind of high level rational thought or analysis.
Then I stumbled on this post https://old.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/16ires5/lead_exposure_from_shooting_is_a_much_more/
Which essentially explains that “Shooting lead bullets at firing ranges results in elevated BLLs at concentrations that are associated with a variety of adverse health outcome"
I looked at the pubmed abstract in that Reddit post and also this one https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5289032/
Which states, among other things, “Workers exposed to lead often show impaired performance on neurobehavioral test involving attention, processing, speed, visuospatial abilities, working memory and motor function. It has also been suggested that lead can adversely affect general intellectual performance.”
Now, given that there are well in excess of 300 million guns in the United States, is it possible lead exposure at least partially explains how brain dead many Americans seem to be?
This is a genuine question not a troll and id love to read some evidence to the contrary if any is available
No.
No that’s kind of stupid.
The amount of lead exposure from shooting is not particularly high and would be concentrated in a very small number of people who are doing things like firing uncoated bullets A LOT ie. reloaders. Most Americans don’t own guns and even the ones that do don’t fire them indoors extremely regularly and most indoor ranges have soap intended for lead. The lead exposure we’re talking about is pretty tiny especially considering lead effects cognition the most during brain DEVELOPMENT and the amount of leaded gas and lead paint are going to be much, much more significant. People who occupationally encounter lead in things like bullets, such as range workers, armorers, etc, monitor their lead exposure and if they are within safe levels the average guy who goes to an indoor range a handful of times a year certainly is. Also, shooting is expensive, most people aren’t shooting thousands of rounds a year, so countries with mandatory service where every 18 year old learns to shoot a rifle, likely using thousands of rounds of rifle ammo for every boy as an early adult would still be a much more statistically significant thing, as anyone who has ever received military training has, simply due to cost, shot more rounds than a very large chunk of any population
What a fucking retarded post
At first glance I thought this post was a bit facetious, but after thinking about it and reviewing some research around people manufacturing the bullets and how it affects them and understanding that detonating them in confined spaces probably is just as if not more problematic. And if you have a job that requires you to do it often, say a cop, does that create even more of an effect? Lead exposure causes a loss of impulse control as well as intelligence effects. Could that be one reason why cops are so much more violent than the average person? I’d love to see a study on lead content of blood in cops, especially ones who murder people they capture, but unfortunately, the NRA is probably too powerful to allow that to happen. And conservatives hate masks, so I doubt it would be easy to convince cops to wear them while practicing.
Most Americans don’t shoot very often, even if they own a bunch of guns.
Part of it is that ammo is just expensive. A trip to the range can burn hundreds of dollars in ammo in just a few minutes.
My aunt spent a long time working in education in the USA, much of it in leadership roles. When she incorporated lessons on critical thinking into the curriculum, it resulted in a lot of pushback from parents who did not appreciate their kids applying the lessons at home.
People who actively resist the use of critical thinking will seem cognitively impaired because they are, in fact intentionally impairing their cognition. My intuition here is to blame religious fundamentalism, but that’s not a well-researched position.
Fundamentalism is certainly a contributing factor, but there are others. Conservatives have been working to cut back on education since the early 80’s. Removing critical thinking training was one of the objectives… Conservative policies are unpopular and are often supported with misrepresentations and outright lies. To succeed, they need a public without the knowledge or skills to realize their arguments are invalid. Unfortunately, they have gone a long way toward accomplishing that.
100%
“We are already providing all the answers you will ever need.” -religion
Organized religion is, fundamentally — at its very core — based on rejecting critical thought; to “just have faith” in the unknown/unknowable.
It is in no way surprising that it’s incompatible with advanced civilization.
A lot of parental pushback comes from frustration over the Dunning-Kruger effect, where somebody who learns a little about a subject feels like an expert. This is often where kids are at. If you keep studying the same material you realize how much you don’t know, which tends to make you feel ignorant, but as you continue you get better at gauging what level you’re at. A lot of it is a matter of maturity. Some parents don’t mind that the kids are learning new things, they just aren’t very good at parenting it. Highly religious people are more likely to see outside information and analyticals skills as a threat, because yeah they are - for good reason lol.
Religion is a major component I’m sure but overall parents probably don’t want their ideals and norms challenged in their own house. This is probably why people (on the right) say that college liberalized their kids. No, college teaches you how to think and pursue answers to your own questions. Not our fault your ideals are based on tradition and ignorance.
Yeah man. When that kid starts asking questions and challenging the family norms, that’s the teacher’s fault for making their life harder. It isn’t a sign that the parent needs to adapt.
Adapting IS a pain in the ass. Some parents don’t have the faculties to do it. Some do, but don’t after getting done with work. It is truely a generational trauma that the parent has to head off in themselves for it to carry to early aged kids.
This is from the Texas GOP 2012 education platform.
“We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.”
They backtracked on critical thinking after the outrage it caused with this
- Munisteri told KVUE, "The platform plank is against a specific type of teaching called ‘outcome-based education.’
"The reason why critical thinking is mentioned is some places try to disguise the program of outcome-based education and just re-label it as ‘critical thinking.’ "
“Good Christian kids need fear-based learning, like we had!”
I doubt that there are enough people shooting enough guns often enough for it to be more than just trace exposures, it likely must be something else.
Yes it’s actually a pretty ignorant idea. Lead exposure is more likely from car exhaust from leaded gas, which has been severely limited since the 80s.
Lead paint in every house probably didn’t help
It’s regular old religion, shit culture, and propaganda just like it always is.
Don’t forget the deliberate effort by Republicans to nerf the public education system
Nerf is too nice a way to say it. They want to abolish the Department of Education. Their goal is that only the children of the rich will get anything close to a good education.
It’s by design. Keep people stupid, and use religion for its intended use, a tool for control.
We the masses are the foundation for their wealth and power.
Plus, Gen-X and Boomers were exposed to a lot of lead.
Gasoline types used to be “Regular or Unleaded” and Regular, I think, and required a"special" engine.
Leaded (“regular”) gas will destroy a catalytic converter. A car without a cat could usually run leaded or unleaded. Some may knock running unleaded if they’re super old or broken in some way. I believe leaded was usually cheaper.
I wouldn’t try running leaded in a modern engine even if you removed the cats. God knows what else it would screw up.
Also fungicides/pesticides can cause dementia. One of the first signs of early onset dementia is loss of empathy. So not very surprising many old rural folks have become jaded people
Small aircraft still use 100LL fuel…(LL is low lead)
Most Americans don’t even own guns. A minority of Americans own lots of guns.
And like 9 out of 10 people who own guns go to the range less than a few times a year.
More than half of gun owners have never gone to a range beyond what might have been part of a state’s pistol permitting process.
9 out of 10 go to the range
More than half have never gone to the range
Math isn’t checking out here buddy.
Less than a few times a year also includes zero… so all of the 50% are part of the 90%
Fair enough.
…never gone to a range beyond what might have been part of a state’s pistol permitting process.
If you can, read the whole sentence. If you can’t, please get checked for lead poisoning.
If I can’t what? Sorry I’m actually functionally illiterate.
According to Gallup, 44% of American households have guns. This is survey based. If fact, the actual number is unknown. A good guess is somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3.
Gun ranges where I live (California) require employees to wear an exposure monitor for a week or so each year. I talked to a range officer about it, and he said that they had never had the monitors indicate anything that is remotely a problem. Nevertheless, careful gun owners are aware of the problem and ranges that I’ve been to post notices and have hand cleaning stuff ready at hand.
Yeah, but I read something on reddit that says Americans all have guns and love shooting them. So they must all have brain damage
Before trump, I’d have agreed with this. After trump, it’s now increasing at an incredible rate. It was like 32% owned a firearm. Latest pew from this year is 40%. Now with trump back in power, I’m betting you will see us hit 50% or nearly 50%.
And using those guns make them a little dumber every time.
haven’t shot a gun in at least 20 years and I’m retarded as shit. so…
I’m sure this will get rained with downvotes at some point but just know you gave me a good chuckle man, and I greatly needed it. Have a great night!
I only downvoted you for saying you’ll be downvoted. Didn’t want to disappoint you.
The damage has been done, probably 😂
Being self aware enough to think that probably means you’re not all that bad.
Post reads like some violently uninformed person making a lot of… I don’t want to say racist cuz that’s not really right, but similar sentiments about Americans
Y’all are stupid cuz of your guns
Is about as stupid a thought as you’re claiming we are because of shooting guns and the fact that anyone in the comments is taking it seriously shows y’all have the exact same level of critical thinking skills as those you’re insulting
Y’all are stupid cuz of your guns
Yeah, in this case he’s got it completely backwards.
Y’all are guns cuz of your stupid
Personally, I’m a firework.
Katy Perry told me so.
I think far more people are exposed to lead in water than from guns. Even gun-owning Americans don’t go to the range that often.
That’s a good point, especially the fact the most people who own guns don’t shoot them that often, but re: lead in the water, hasn’t the issue of lead in water become less significant over time?
This post by New York City government states that actually construction work is the most common source of lead exposure for people in the city, followed by sketchy consumer products. https://a816-dohbesp.nyc.gov/IndicatorPublic/data-stories/adult-lead/#%3A~%3Atext=This+continued+drop+in+blood%2Cair%2C+paint+and+consumer+products.
Maybe just generally we’re not taking the adverse cognitive effects of lead exposure, whatever the source, seriously enough?
Edit: someone else in the comments made the connection between the high numbers of lead water pipes in Florida and the “Florida man” phenomenon. Maybe lead in the water is still way more significant of an issue than I thought
Lead pipes internally corrode through chemical reaction very quickly. Then the corrosion shields the water from the lead. They aren’t very dangerous.
You’re maybe not wrong, but I expect that even then the amount of lead and lead salts that gets in the water will be significantly higher than from non-lead pipes
Oh yeah, every lead water pipe everywhere should be replaced. I was just trying to say that the level of concern is way too high.
Also bear in mind that leaded gas was the norm til the mid 90s, so a lot of boomers and Gen X were exposed
was the norm
In the US, it was only banned from being sold in 1996, but it wasn’t the norm for long before that. The last model year that leaded gas was allowed for cars was 1974. Yes, all Boomers and most of Gen X would have had high exposure, but it would have been fading out by the time younger Gen Xers were born.
And yes there are some non-car applications of it that are still legal to this day, but the overall frequency of it would have dropped a ton well before the mid-90s. (Source, and actual graphs of the decline over time)
I think they are trying to phase out 100LL right now
They’re trying again. AvGas has always been more of a challenge, more resistant to change, but also a niche market segment. They were also trying twenty years ago when I did some flying, but progress has been glacial. Personally I always hoped we’d get new engines that could run on jet fuel, so avgas could just go away ( one of the things holding back general aviation is cost, and jet fuel is much cheaper)
The state of Florida has more lead service pipes (water) than any other state in the US. I’ve been saying for years that this could be an actual source or at least partial cause of the phenomenon known as “Floridaman”.
After having been here in Miami for several years I can 1st hand confirm that most of the people here are not intelligent.
Throw in our appalling educational systems and what capacity for rational independent critical thinking was never developed.
We have been told by TV, advertising, media in general, that people are smart, you’re smart, you’re a smart person there Joe and Jane America. But they aren’t. Most can’t distinguish the difference between thinking and feeling, therefore they conflate the two.
It’s not a good look I’ll grant you that. Hey we might be stupid, but at least we’re violent.
The average ACT score in Florida among college-bound seniors is about 18. To be clear, that is only slightly higher than my cat can score by guessing. It’s an astonishing result. They are actually illiterate. And again, that’s the average for the state (nationally it’s around 22), and half of them do worse.
If you’ve ever tried to have a conversation with an average person… well, you can’t. There’s nothing to discuss except sports, since everything else is way too complicated. So now imagine a standard deviation lower.
If you’ve ever tried to have a conversation with an average person… well, you can’t.
I grew up in Virginia Beach/Hampton roads, and moved to Tennessee in 09 at 18. I’ve never really wanted to admit that outloud, to be honest, but I feel like the only normal person in this state sometimes. I’ve been here for over 15 years and I have met a grand total of 7 people I could have a decent conversation with, one of which is an Episcopal priest from another state, and 2 I met specifically through left wing organizing, so a group with membership that’s already higher than likely to be biased to education and intelligence. I knew people back home that were smart. I don’t mean educated, or some High Potential/Sheldon Cooper shit, I mean they were rational, intelligent human beings capable of common sense and able to hold a conversation. And remember, I was a teenager when I left. At 17 my peers in Hampton Roads were more capable at humaning than are my peers here at 33.
That makes me deeply sad, and I feel like such an elitist shit saying it out loud.
The first time I traveled to America, my first thought after a day meeting southerners was “man, these people are dumb as rocks”. It was a major tourist destination so I met many Americans of normal intelligence from elsewhere, and the southerners were friendly, but man… the things they chose to talk about, and questions they chose to ask, really solidified how dangerous promoting religion over education is. A democracy can only survive when the average is informed, and conservatisms overall anti-intellectualism — its multi-decade attacks on education — is the #2 predictive variable destroying western democracies (the #1 being religion itself).
Let’s just say I’ve been expecting fascist dictatorship for America for over 2 decades, so Trump/MAGA was expected… Though, even with that expectation, I didn’t expect it to be this fucking stupid.
Sit at any self-checkout in any grocer you like here in SF, and just watch for 10-15 minutes. That’s it, just watch. You WILL be amazed/appalled at just how small the intellects are.
I find this comment super compelling, especially in combination with some of the other good points in the comments here. thank you
To be clear, the “Floridaman” thing certainly benefits from the “sunshine state” bullshit, but yeah, the rest of your points are sound. 🤌🏽
The vast majority of Americans don’t own/shoot guns. There’s 300 million guns because some people own multiple.
Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/
Also, the British literally voted to have a worse economy. We don’t have a monopoly on headassery.
Also, the British literally voted to have a worse economy. We don’t have a monopoly on headassery.
Our Brexit vote narrowly won for the same reason that Trump won again - the weaponisation of our stupid people via social media by right-wing shitbags.
It’s not like these people are getting 75% of the vote and the opposition is fractured. Is’s mostly pluralities or, at best, 52%ish percent of the vote. And 20% of people in any country are just change voters no matter what the change is.
There’s not really mandates in the U.S. Trump won’t even be able to control the House. We got a Belgium situation where there’s no government.
For those that don’t know, Belgium is the world’s most successful failed state. There’s enough chocolate and beer around so no one cares but they suck at forming governments. I think they beat Iraq’s record at just not forming a government.
Or, you know, the lead that we put into the air for decades burning leaded gasoline…
Even though we’ve (mostly) stopped doing that, the effects are cumulative, and there are still plenty of people alive who were around when that was still a thing.
Somebody else in the comments said something very similar, I’lll paraphrase what I responded which is that I hadn’t really thought of that, and I’m starting now to come around to the notion that maybe even if there is some percentage of the population suffering the cognitive impairments associated with the adverse effects of lead, it’s probably more likely that they were exposed many years or decades ago vs recently
It’s a known risk, and there are guidelines to lessen or prevent lead exposure at the range, but I’d wager most shooters aren’t aware.
For example:
Use jacketed or lead free bullets and primers.
Wash your face, arms and hands after using the range.
Change your clothes and shoes after using the range.
Wash your range clothes separately from your families.
Do not eat, drink, or smoke on the range.
Take the same precautions after cleaning your guns.
That being said, the folks at largest risk for this kind of exposure would be those who fire guns the most often, so that population would be the canary in the coal mine so to speak.
https://www.quora.com/How-often-do-police-officers-practice-at-ranges
"How often do police officers practice at ranges?
Most departments require re-qualification training once a year.
My department required shooting three times a year, once with our sidearm, once with our 12 gauge shotguns, and once with our AR 15 carbines.
As for my self, I go to the range 8 to 10 times a year. I am usually accompanied by 5 or 6 of my fellow officers. We are not for the fun, we are training by using the state required shooting plans and we add a little extra to it.
Most officers I know only go to range when required for re-qualification. Not because they don’t want to, shooting off a couple hundreds rounds is an expensive proposition."
Yeah… Might be a reason cops seem dumber than average, and they don’t hire the brightest to begin with.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836
Thanks for being the first person in this thread to actually post some useful tips to get the lead out, so to speak.
Thanks for being the first person in this thread** to actually post some useful tips** to get the lead out, so to speak.
Sorry to contradict you here but, like I suggested in another comment, reading a book instead of playing with a gun is also a very efficient (and cheap) way to lessen lead exposure :p
Some of us were around when leaded gasoline was the norm, and every municipality had a crime rate drop that corellates to their unleaded gas mandate.
Then there’s lead in candy which was a problem until the FDA shut that down.
There still is lead in fuel, and so kids who play in urban playgrounds are supposed to wash their hands before eating anything.
So if our people have detectable elevated lead levels (it has a plenty-long bio half life), I’d question automotive exhaust and industry before worrying about guns at the range. Unless someone is squeezing off a hundred rounds a day.
