If you would otherwise vote Democratic and fail to vote for Biden over stupid shit like this, you will be electing someone who openly admits to wanting a purge program here:
Your choice is to vote for someone who supports Israel because he wants donations from the true believers, or through inaction, allow someone to get elected who actively says he will start rounding people up HERE. Immediately.
There is no choice. You don’t have to LIKE Biden. You don’t have to tell polls the truth about who you’re voting for. You don’t have to donate, and in fact I advise you do not and you tell the campaign exactly why.
But when it comes to the actual vote, no, you do not have a choice. It’s Biden or complete fucking anarchy.
Democracy is when you get to choose between genocide over there OR genocide over there and right here too. Because you know damn well Trumps policy on Israel won’t be any different.
Go lick orange asshole elsewhere. Or did you forget when he tried to start a war with Iran by assassinating one of their generals on Iraqi land against the Iraqi government’s wishes?
Look up how many Trump did that t- oh, wait, he revoked the rule implemented by Obama that demanded drone strike deaths be publicly reported, and outright ignored the legal demands to release the strikes, so you can’t.
Fucking dumbass. Keep chowing on Great Orange’s literal shit, and maybe he’ll deign to grab you by the pussy too.
I’m not American. Trumps track record was a serious improvement for people hold that office, all you have to do is look at the facts and numbers, and ignore how unpleasant he was. I know, I know, Baracks class n charisma made everything seem OK when they were literally murdering a head of state to intentionally destabilize but it wasn’t
Voting for fascism is also voting for genocide. You’re choices are a little genocide without fascism or a lot of genocide with fascism. I know what I’m choosing.
From a utilitarian point of view, it probably makes more sense to attempt to minimize suffering rather than opting out of the decision and thereby passively enable greater suffering.
But hey, it’s the trolley problem all over again, and people hate even thinking about that one.
Clever, but wrong. You actually get to choose between:
Continuing to give $600 million in annual aid to Gaza and diplomacy to try to get Israel to minimize civilian casualties while they understandably pursue Hamas terrorists,
Or,
Fascism and complete disregard for civilian casualties.
Perhaps neither is to your taste, but there are stark differences in the two positions.
Yes, I know, actual rational policy-making is so boring. It is much less satisfying than over-simplified, one-sided memes. But, you know, that’s what adults do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Shit take. Fascism is never out of the picture and spouting “vote blue no matter who” only pushes the window closer to it. You’ll just say the same thing in 4 years when it’s Trump again or one of his many soundalikes vs another genocidal Zionist wearing a D by their name. Engaging with the 2 party system validates it and it will never be “healthy.”
Not sure what you mean, but it sounds like you just don’t care because it doesn’t affect your choice. I wonder how you will feel if one day your party’s candidate finally crosses your line
I think what you are saying is mostly true but also you do have a choice. If you can’t bring yourself to vote for Biden because of well founded reasons I don’t think it’s fair to judge because of that. All the centrists start screaming and losing their minds that they are going to lose because their candidate sucks and blame it on people who have specific, previously vocalized reasons for not wanting to vote for said candidate.
You aren’t the problem if you don’t want to vote for Biden because of his unwavering support for genocide. Yes the alternative is worse, but election after election you can’t just keep handing centrists your vote who don’t give a shit about you or your policies (and actively shit on you while loudly posturing that they aren’t like you at all). At some point you have to make the threat of withholding your vote a real one, there are always consequences to that especially for this election but at the same time nothing is really going to change if we keep handing centrist corporate democrats the reigns to power because this time is an emergency too (just like last time).
I recommend voting for Biden for similar reasons you brought up, but I also don’t think there is any shame to deciding you can’t bring yourself to vote for such a trash candidate and want to choose this election so support a third party. Bad timing? Yeah, but it isn’t the voters fault for not wanting to vote for someone that doesn’t represent them?
Yes the alternative is worse, but election after election you can’t just keep handing centrists your vote who don’t give a shit about you or your policies (and actively shit on you while loudly posturing that they aren’t like you at all). At some point you have to make the threat of withholding your vote a real one, there are always consequences to that especially for this election but at the same time nothing is really going to change if we keep handing centrist corporate democrats the reigns to power because this time is an emergency too (just like last time).
Here’s where you’re missing something fundamental. You’re taking as a given that a protest vote will meaningfully register with the Democratic Party, and they’ll chase you around to get your vote back. I’d offer that a significant reason major US parties have drifted rightward over the past 40 years is this. Conservatives skew older. Leftists skew younger. Young people simply don’t vote. Ergo conservatives have an outsized voice in the political sphere. When more leftists disengage, the conservative voice grows louder.
If you protest vote the Democratic Party, you’re just proving to them that they can’t count on your vote. If they can’t count on your vote, they have the option of scrambling to try to figure out what you want, or chasing voters whose support they can count on, and based on recent history that’ll probably result in more of a shift to the right. Because, at the end of the day, right-leaning voters have a weird fervor that leftists don’t share, and leftists disengage at the drop of a hat. If we’re being honest, that’s not a great group of people to have on your team if you’re trying to sustain political relevance.
What an inspiring message. Biden will win for sure if we all make just one lecturing, patronizing post each day. Bonus points if you can find someone who had family killed in Gaza! They need the most reminding that Trump is the real threat.
Whatever happened to “vote blue no matter who” anyway?
Even though I belong to one political party, I personally always vote on a case-by-case basis, for the best person for the job/country, and not automatically for party.
Check in Michigan. Their votes actually matter and they have a whole Palestinian-American congresswoman.
Sadly, I don’t live in a swing state so it doesn’t matter who I vote for. My vote, whether it be for Biden or a third party, is effectively a protest vote against the state’s electors voting for Trump. I can vote, not vote, vote for a third party; it really doesn’t matter.
That’s not true either, it is simply that democracy is complex and messy. Vote in primaries, campaign for better candidates, and pay money to organizations that support the things that matter most to you.
There’s a whole Wikipedia page of dominant parties that reigned supreme as a duopoly in this country until a third party came along and dethroned them. What you just said shows a shocking ignorance of history. Vote whig.
There is a whole Wikipedia page showing changes in name. The function of the first past the post system means these are fundamentally the same constructs with different branding. If a party replaces democrats or republicans, then we will be back in the same place in an election cycle.
You could say the exact same thing for the exact same reasons about the US government. If you can’t fix a rotton organization, then any attempt at political action in the United States is a fools errand. Thankfully, you’re just talking out of your ass. We get it, you’re edgy.
Setting aside that you know nothing of my voting history, this is entirely irrelevant.
The Democratic party used to be what the Republicans are today. Eventually they became the party of FDR and the new deal. Now they are the party of Bill Clinton and third way neoliberal corporatism. Things change, and we can influence the direction of that change. Forcing Biden to the left has made him a better president than anyone on the left expected. He’s still not the president we want, but we shifted him in the right direction. The Democratic party as a whole is better now than it was 10 years ago.
Go ahead and piss on the progress that’s been made, but then be prepared to explain how third party movements have done any better.
You’re doing way worse than throwing away your vote, you’re voting FOR genocide. If you and other Dem voters who want to feel good about yourself weren’t cowards and voted Green we wouldn’t be perpetuating a genocide in the first place.
Any vote is for genocide. You’re voting for either a self avowed zionist (Biden) a literal Nazi (Trump) or throwing away your vote to allow the literal Nazi to win.
not really: eyewitness testimony is some of the worst we can ask for. you should ask carville, though, you don’t have to: he’s in the mini-doc i linked.
If you coerce/force someone to vote the way you want them to, then can you truly say we live in a free country?
There’s nothing stopping the Democrats from putting someone else up to run against Trump.
And don’t say no one else can be Trump, there’s a whole year still, and it’s going to be the undecided Centrists who decide who wins in any case, so you just need to put someone up that appeals to them mostly.
America isn’t that free of a country. Democrats were always going to run their incumbent. The time to choose a left wing candidate was the 2020 primary, which is why I was devastated when Biden won. I knew we would be stuck with him for 8 fucking years. The left didn’t turn out enough in that primary, and the establishment went with one of the worst choices.
The fact that there isn’t some popular Democratic alternative at this point means it will not happen. Biden has been the most left wing president in over half a century, and none of his shitty decisions have been due to his age. Organize with the DSA or promote left wing Democrats if you’re fed up with the establishment. Recognize that becoming cynically apathetic makes you a pathetic asshole, not a person who’s better than those that try.
It’s not centrists who decide elections by choosing a candidate, it’s the people fed up with the system who decide elections by choosing whether or not to show up for the vote.
It’s not centrists who decide elections by choosing a candidate, it’s the people fed up with the system who decide elections by choosing whether or not to show up for the vote.
Well I speaking towards from the pool of people who actually show up to vote, decide the vote. Not the no shows.
These days the two sides are ‘baked in’, so it’s going to be the undecided middle that decides.
I’m assuming that if the Democrats choose somebody else besides Biden, that the younger voters have more of a chance of showing up to vote, than with Biden.
No, it is never the middle that decides elections in the US. Democrats win when turnout is high, and Republicans win when turnout is low.
Know how AOC won her seat from Pelosi’s presumed successor who was considered unbeatable? She focused her campaign on unlikely voters. When she actually spoke to those people, they showed up to vote. That’s the path to victory for Democrats.
Hillary dominated with moderate voters in 2016. She was also an uninspiring elitist which led to terrible turnout. Biden wasn’t much better, but four years of Trump drove record breaking turnout,band Biden won.
It’s all about energy and engagement. Biden sure isn’t going to bring that next year, but maybe there is enough anti-Trump sentiment left to drive turnout. Of course Trump might not be the candidate. I think Biden might beat DeSantis, but not a slightly more obscure candidate like Nikki Haley.
You are right about the energy level scenario, but I wasn’t speaking towards that. I’m assuming that unless a candidate really screws up that everyone will come out to vote, since we’re very much in a party warish voting mode these days.
I was speaking about what the size and a large turnout vote, the people who are not already baked in for one party or another, always vote just for one party, and when there is a large turnout.
Basically everyone else, the centrists, those are rarely vote, those who literally jump back and forth and decide on a case by case basis based on the individual running in every election, etc.
Nobody is going to tell the sitting president not to run again, that’s a decision he needs to come to all on his own, and if he doesn’t, the DNC will not oppose him.
Nobody is going to tell the sitting president not to run again
Actually if the warning signs were dire enough, the inner democratic party elites would push hard for it. Some are saying that the Cali Gov is already running a stealth run, being ready to jump in if Biden exits.
As a Cali native, Newsom would be worse than Biden. If he ran in a Democratic primary, he might lose California because Democrats here don’t like him that much. If the primary was between him and Biden, I would vote for Biden because he’s less elitist and has a better moral compass. Newsom honestly doesn’t seem to have serious principles beyond political success. He’s a distilled version of what people hate about Democrats.
As a Cali native, Newsom would be worse than Biden. If he ran in a Democratic primary, he might lose California because Democrats here don’t like him that much.
Actually he was doing a lot better until just recently when he started supporting Biden, basically pissing off Californians as he moves to the middle for a national race. But historically he’s had good (for a Governer) ratings.
The survey showed Newsom’s popularity has tumbled this year as he continues to amplify his national profile and campaign outside of the Golden State to support President Biden and attack Republican governors and their conservative political agendas.
.
Newsom honestly doesn’t seem to have serious principles beyond political success
Yeah he does come off is being slick and opportunist, and I hate saying what I’m about to say, but at the same time he’s a politician. /shrug
The kind of person I’d like to vote for never seems to run for office.
Newsom hate isn’t new. There was genuine worry he was going to lose his recall election, replaced by a radical Republican with a plurality of support from only those that voted for his removal. Left wing Democrats who were critical of Newsom united and organized to prevent a fascist rising to power. We put aside our gripes with corpocrats to prevent someone even worse from winning.
California is guaranteed for the Democrats in the modern era, so we usually sit on the sidelines of the fight for the presidency and hope other states make the right call. However, the recall race showed that we were also willing to hold our nose and vote for the lesser of two evils.
That’s part of why I get so frustrated by the anti voting shit. Biden is more of a genuine human being than Newsom, yet people fall for accelerationist propaganda. They delude themselves into thinking that not voting will strengthen the left when the opposite is true. The unreliability of young, left wing voters reinforces the establishment bias of not appealing to them. If they won’t even turn out for Bernie in the 2020 primary, why rely on them?
The survey showed Newsom’s popularity has tumbled this year as he continues to amplify his national profile and campaign outside of the Golden State to support President Biden
Any governor in any state always gets some hate, but Newson popularity’s gone down allot just recently because of his support for Biden and his move towards the center for a possible national run.
There was genuine worry he was going to lose his recall election, replaced by a radical Republican with a plurality of support from only those that voted for his removal.
In California? Highly doubtful (the italicized part).
I was here, and I saw that the local news pushed that angle (probably for ratings) but the people in the streets weren’t really saying that.
They delude themselves into thinking that not voting will strengthen the left when the opposite is true.
I actually agree with this, but, I think the nation should come before ideology, and definitely for party. And at the end, you have to do what you think is right, not what is best for a particular organization.
Bottom line, I don’t believe Biden is physically and mentally able to hold the office for another four years. He should leave with the thanks of a grateful nation for steering us away from Trump, and not cling on for another four years.
Give me another Democrat to vote for, and I’ll happily do so, or a good/decent centrist Republican for that matter. The choices we have to choose from these days are horrible.
I get the physical part of Biden being unfit, but not the mental part. I’ve not seen any evidence of his age making him less intelligent or mentally. He’s not physically well, but whenever someone says he’s senile, I automatically assume they don’t know what they’re talking about. “Senile” is not synonymous with “out of touch.”
With the recall, concern wasn’t just coming from some rando or only Democratic partisans. I heard it from respected political scientists. They thought Newsom was likely to win, but there was still great risk of a Republican governor getting elected without popular support. It’s how Arnold Schwarzenegger, a moderate Republican, managed to get elected. The Governator never could have won a Republican primary, and didn’t even win the popular vote. If it weren’t for serious campaigning in the last few months, the recall could have been close.
Newsom always had majority approval, but the concern about the recall came because people were only lukewarm on him. He isn’t an exciting candidate, which is what the left claims to want. Like I said before, Biden seems more genuine about his morals and principles than Newsom. Newsom is more of what the left hates than Biden.
Complete anarchy, because as much as Trump WANTS to be a fascist, his first term proves he’s not actually any good at much of anything.
The opposition to Trump’s fancy private police force in their black uniforms and snazzy gold trim, will result in the US becoming a failed state, and, yes, complete anarchy.
Fascism is, by definition, a right wing ideology. Biden literally cannot be a fascist, he’s not even authoritarian. If he were we would have already had universal health care and student debt relief by now.
A right wing fascist candidate would not have pushed for health care, infrastructure, unemployment, stimulus packages, or education refunds, all of which Biden did.
Again, NOT right wing. Not even CLOSE to right wing, and that’s the “you must be this tall to ride this ride” for fascism.
“Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right (no), authoritarian (no), ultranationalist (no) political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader (no), centralized autocracy (no), militarism (no), forcible suppression of opposition (no), belief in a natural social hierarchy (no), subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race (no), and strong regimentation of society and the economy (no).[2][3]”
Point for point for point, Biden is not a fascist.
“they had many characteristics in common, including extreme militaristic nationalism (no), contempt for electoral democracy (no) and political and cultural liberalism (I WISH!), a belief in natural social hierarchy and the rule of elites (no), and the desire to create a Volksgemeinschaft (German: “people’s community”), in which individual interests would be subordinated to the good of the nation. (no)”
"often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual (no) and that stands for a centralized autocratic government (no) headed by a dictatorial leader, (no) severe economic and social regimentation (no), and forcible suppression of opposition (no)
2
: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control (no)"
Of the two 2024 candidates, only Trump meets the definition, NOT Biden.
If Biden WERE actually a fascist, Hunter wouldn’t be staring down a prison term and Biden wouldn’t be looking at impeachment hearings. A fascist would have shut that shit down already.
The problem with the internet is too many kids going “Well I don’t like it so it’s fascism!” that’s not how ANY of this works.
"It wasn’t until the 1950s and 1960s that the Far Right again began to rise, becoming a more dominant force with the formation of anti-democratic groups (not Biden) and political parties in the late 1960s and 1970s, including France’s Front National, Austria’s Freedom Party, and the UK’s National Front, which joined most of the post-war extreme right groups in the UK under one neo-fascist umbrella.
Right-wing extremism has continued its presence in the new conspiracism of a post-truth, pro-Trump American culture—predominantly taking the form of white supremacy groups (not Biden), such as the Ku Klux Klan (KKK) (Not Biden), who have had long histories in the United States. The KKK in particular, though first established as a secret society at the end of slavery, had a significant resurgence in the 1920s, staying close to the mainstream until the 1960s when a combination of the civil rights movement and wider political developments forced them into decline, with their remaining followers becoming even more extremist. Other uniquely American versions of Far Right extremism include the Christian Identity movement (not Biden) and white supremacist prison gangs such as Aryan Brotherhood. (not Biden)
The most recent iteration of right-wing extremism, the alt-right, has come about in the past few years with the growth of the internet and social media and is associated with right-wing terrorism. The alt-right continues the fixation on conspiracy, race, and white supremacy created by the extreme right-wing groups that came before it (not Biden), but differs in its lack of a physical place—with its followers communicating almost entirely online—and a new focus on ultra-masculinity (not Biden).
From conspiracy theories to white supremacy, far-right extremism has had a long, sometimes violent presence (not Biden) in Europe and America. The primary sources available in Gale’s Political Extremism and Radicalism series are essential resources for researchers looking to explore the nature of far-right groups and political parties—from major figures and events to examining the ideologies of these groups—using the propaganda they created to express new conspiracism (not Biden) and promote violence. (not Biden)"
“Authoritarianism is a political system characterized by a controlling government and the rejection of democracy, human rights, and political plurality. It involves the use of strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in the rule of law, separation of powers, and democratic voting.[1][2]”
“ultranationalism is essentially founded on xenophobia in a way that finds supposed legitimacy “through deeply mythicized narratives of past cultural or political periods of historical greatness or of old scores to settle against alleged enemies”. It can also draw on “vulgarized forms” of different aspects of the natural sciences such as anthropology and genetics, eugenics specifically playing a role, in order “to rationalize ideas of national superiority and destiny, of degeneracy and subhumanness” in Griffin’s opinion. Ultranationalists view the modern nation-state as, according to Griffin, a living organism directly akin to a physical person such that it can decay, grow, die, and additionally experience rebirth. He has highlighted Nazi Germany as a regime which was founded on ultranationalism.[3]”
or how about we overthrow our shit govt instead of participating in this fucking circus act year after year.
also this isnt stupid shit its a genocide you daft cunt
If your apathy opens the door to a Republican supermajority in your state legislature, then they can more easily a) strip rights from your friends and neighbors, b) assist in the ratification of amendments and calling of Constitutional Conventions, c) gerrymander away your power to influence Congress, d) remove your city’s ability to govern itself, among others. Down-ballot races can potentially affect all of us.
Except in actuality where with the electoral college in play, states that have as few electors as Rhode Island have a smaller number of EC votes than every margin of victory in the modern history of presidential elections. You could axe any one state with that few number of electors and you wouldn’t change a presidential result of the last century or more.
Okay? My point is that the electoral college means not every vote will count, and that is a system that only effects the presidential. So saying, and I quote from who I replied to “every vote matters” still isn’t telling the whole story as much as something like “every vote matters except the votes for president unless you live in specific places”
‘my vote doesn’t matter’ is a self fulfilling prophecy. The more people actually believe that, the more they won’t go and vote and then indeed it doesn’t matter.
However if all the people that think that their vote doesn’t matter actually do go and vote, they would be a significant demographic.
It might not make a difference straight away, but thinks only happen if you invest in them.
Same thing with sports. If you support one team, it makes you more invested in the game itself. Your team might not win every time, but if you care only about winning you’re not a true supporter. It will make it easy more satisfying if you do win, though. And one day you will.
To add to this: if the opposition party consistently shows up to vote, the dominant party gets nervous, and has to focus on the chance of losing. Not showing up means they’ve truly won.
It also shows the opposition party that they can and should invest the time in supporting that area, because there’s people who haven’t given up yet.
Also, the president isn’t the only person on the ballot, and small races are where more radical third parties actually have a shot!
Congressional, state and local elections are held at the same time on the same damn ballot and absolutely matter. They absolutely will affect you and congress is arguably just as important as potus. It’s called being engaged, instead just complaining while letting others take the wheel.
He’s technically correct. As long as the electoral college exists, many peoples votes effectively don’t matter because that state will always go one way. Once that occurs, the opposing votes are effectively erased.
Afaik the American special the electoral college votes for whatever the majority vote of that State is. So votes do count, towards that majority.
If everybody assumes that one party will win and doesn’t go to vote it will never change, if everybody who thinks that their vote doesn’t matter would do that, a change can happen.
you will be electing someone who openly admits to wanting a purge program here:
Understood. You’re okay with that stuff happening in Palestine, but not the USA, because you live in the USA. Supporting tyranny abroad is a-okay because you don’t think it affects you.
There’s no way you could honestly interpret what I wrote that way. I’m responding to the fans of Joe who are openly saying “Who cares about genocide when Trump is worse?”
I do care about genocide, and that’s (one of many reasons) why I’ll be voting for Jill Stein, not Joe Biden.
If there can only be 1 winner, and there are 2 frontrunners who have the only real chance of winning, a 3rd competitor only takes votes from a frontrunner and has no chance of winning themselves.
As someone like Stein is mentioned as an alternative to voting for trump, therefore the person was never a trump voter, they were never going to ADD to Trump’s chances. Their only voting action is to either vote for Biden, or NOT* vote. By NOT* I mean not contribute to bidens vote totals.
Voting for stein is effectively a non republican voter staying home.
This is a major problem with our voting system, there can only ever be 2 realistic choices, and a third party vote has greater game theory implications than independent voters like to accept.
If you’re not familiar, the US uses a two party system. Not voting is no different than voting for Jill. There’s no difference between not voting for Biden and voting for Trump.
Good thing you do remember since he’s still ripping apart immigrant families. Biden’s border policy is only marginally better than Trumps, he just doesn’t brag about it.
I’ll try to make this as simple as possible:
If you would otherwise vote Democratic and fail to vote for Biden over stupid shit like this, you will be electing someone who openly admits to wanting a purge program here:
https://www.ft.com/content/9ec03cc8-afb0-4a06-9770-015e6f718bf7
Your choice is to vote for someone who supports Israel because he wants donations from the true believers, or through inaction, allow someone to get elected who actively says he will start rounding people up HERE. Immediately.
There is no choice. You don’t have to LIKE Biden. You don’t have to tell polls the truth about who you’re voting for. You don’t have to donate, and in fact I advise you do not and you tell the campaign exactly why.
But when it comes to the actual vote, no, you do not have a choice. It’s Biden or complete fucking anarchy.
Democracy is when you get to choose between voting for genocide and voting for fascism.
Democracy is when you get to choose between genocide over there OR genocide over there and right here too. Because you know damn well Trumps policy on Israel won’t be any different.
Sure it will. He’d have US jets running sorties on Palestinian civilians in addition to the aid so he could feel like a Big Boy.
I mean, he was the first president since Carter to not start a war, so, no, that really wasn’t his act.
Go lick orange asshole elsewhere. Or did you forget when he tried to start a war with Iran by assassinating one of their generals on Iraqi land against the Iraqi government’s wishes?
None of that changes what I said. Look up how many Biden and Obama did that to.
Look up how many Trump did that t- oh, wait, he revoked the rule implemented by Obama that demanded drone strike deaths be publicly reported, and outright ignored the legal demands to release the strikes, so you can’t.
Fucking dumbass. Keep chowing on Great Orange’s literal shit, and maybe he’ll deign to grab you by the pussy too.
I’m not American. Trumps track record was a serious improvement for people hold that office, all you have to do is look at the facts and numbers, and ignore how unpleasant he was. I know, I know, Baracks class n charisma made everything seem OK when they were literally murdering a head of state to intentionally destabilize but it wasn’t
He didn’t start a war?!? That must mean he is a pacifist!
As compared
Voting for fascism is also voting for genocide. You’re choices are a little genocide without fascism or a lot of genocide with fascism. I know what I’m choosing.
How about voting for no genocide?
Go ahead and vote for an option you know for sure won’t win. I hope it satisfies your vanity.
From a utilitarian point of view, it probably makes more sense to attempt to minimize suffering rather than opting out of the decision and thereby passively enable greater suffering.
But hey, it’s the trolley problem all over again, and people hate even thinking about that one.
Kang and Kodos
Clever, but wrong. You actually get to choose between:
Perhaps neither is to your taste, but there are stark differences in the two positions.
Yes, I know, actual rational policy-making is so boring. It is much less satisfying than over-simplified, one-sided memes. But, you know, that’s what adults do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
“There is no choice.” “You do not have a choice.” Classic catchphrases of a healthy, functioning democracy
It won’t be healthy until Trumpism is out of the picture.
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It hasn’t been healthy for years
Shit take. Fascism is never out of the picture and spouting “vote blue no matter who” only pushes the window closer to it. You’ll just say the same thing in 4 years when it’s Trump again or one of his many soundalikes vs another genocidal Zionist wearing a D by their name. Engaging with the 2 party system validates it and it will never be “healthy.”
Did someone say this was a healthy democracy? We’re talking about fucking survival
As this situation only applies to a small minority of voters, this is literally the definition of how democracy works.
Not sure what you mean, but it sounds like you just don’t care because it doesn’t affect your choice. I wonder how you will feel if one day your party’s candidate finally crosses your line
Very few people love their candidate, even with alternative voting systems. Compromise is indeed part of the deal.
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For a lot of people this isn’t stupid shit
Someone else’s genocide pales in comparison to our own when we aren’t here to help them.
Yeah that’s false lol
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A lot of people also don’t understand that Biden is pleading to his donors. He doesn’t actually care what Israel does or doesn’t do.
Oh, he’s doing it for money! That makes it okay, then.
I think what you are saying is mostly true but also you do have a choice. If you can’t bring yourself to vote for Biden because of well founded reasons I don’t think it’s fair to judge because of that. All the centrists start screaming and losing their minds that they are going to lose because their candidate sucks and blame it on people who have specific, previously vocalized reasons for not wanting to vote for said candidate.
You aren’t the problem if you don’t want to vote for Biden because of his unwavering support for genocide. Yes the alternative is worse, but election after election you can’t just keep handing centrists your vote who don’t give a shit about you or your policies (and actively shit on you while loudly posturing that they aren’t like you at all). At some point you have to make the threat of withholding your vote a real one, there are always consequences to that especially for this election but at the same time nothing is really going to change if we keep handing centrist corporate democrats the reigns to power because this time is an emergency too (just like last time).
I recommend voting for Biden for similar reasons you brought up, but I also don’t think there is any shame to deciding you can’t bring yourself to vote for such a trash candidate and want to choose this election so support a third party. Bad timing? Yeah, but it isn’t the voters fault for not wanting to vote for someone that doesn’t represent them?
Here’s where you’re missing something fundamental. You’re taking as a given that a protest vote will meaningfully register with the Democratic Party, and they’ll chase you around to get your vote back. I’d offer that a significant reason major US parties have drifted rightward over the past 40 years is this. Conservatives skew older. Leftists skew younger. Young people simply don’t vote. Ergo conservatives have an outsized voice in the political sphere. When more leftists disengage, the conservative voice grows louder.
If you protest vote the Democratic Party, you’re just proving to them that they can’t count on your vote. If they can’t count on your vote, they have the option of scrambling to try to figure out what you want, or chasing voters whose support they can count on, and based on recent history that’ll probably result in more of a shift to the right. Because, at the end of the day, right-leaning voters have a weird fervor that leftists don’t share, and leftists disengage at the drop of a hat. If we’re being honest, that’s not a great group of people to have on your team if you’re trying to sustain political relevance.
What an inspiring message. Biden will win for sure if we all make just one lecturing, patronizing post each day. Bonus points if you can find someone who had family killed in Gaza! They need the most reminding that Trump is the real threat.
The people making these comments act like there’s literally nobody else in the democrat party.
This. Give us another choice in the same party to vote for.
Whatever happened to “vote blue no matter who” anyway?
Even though I belong to one political party, I personally always vote on a case-by-case basis, for the best person for the job/country, and not automatically for party.
I’d love to hear from this mythical voting bloc that keeps coming up.
Sadly, I don’t live in a swing state so it doesn’t matter who I vote for. My vote, whether it be for Biden or a third party, is effectively a protest vote against the state’s electors voting for Trump. I can vote, not vote, vote for a third party; it really doesn’t matter.
Hilarious, if pretty racist, that this is how you think about this.
This post makes me want to not vote for Biden twice as much as I already don’t want to vote for Biden.
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There are no third parties until ranked choice voting.
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Now you’re getting it
That’s not true either, it is simply that democracy is complex and messy. Vote in primaries, campaign for better candidates, and pay money to organizations that support the things that matter most to you.
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Or we could just have a civil war and get it over with
There’s a whole Wikipedia page of dominant parties that reigned supreme as a duopoly in this country until a third party came along and dethroned them. What you just said shows a shocking ignorance of history. Vote whig.
There is a whole Wikipedia page showing changes in name. The function of the first past the post system means these are fundamentally the same constructs with different branding. If a party replaces democrats or republicans, then we will be back in the same place in an election cycle.
Third parties are fairytale nonsense. We fix the Democratic party, or we fail.
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You could say the exact same thing for the exact same reasons about the US government. If you can’t fix a rotton organization, then any attempt at political action in the United States is a fools errand. Thankfully, you’re just talking out of your ass. We get it, you’re edgy.
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Setting aside that you know nothing of my voting history, this is entirely irrelevant.
The Democratic party used to be what the Republicans are today. Eventually they became the party of FDR and the new deal. Now they are the party of Bill Clinton and third way neoliberal corporatism. Things change, and we can influence the direction of that change. Forcing Biden to the left has made him a better president than anyone on the left expected. He’s still not the president we want, but we shifted him in the right direction. The Democratic party as a whole is better now than it was 10 years ago.
Go ahead and piss on the progress that’s been made, but then be prepared to explain how third party movements have done any better.
You will never get a 3rd party going. Perot had the best chance in '92 and only ensured Clinton got elected.
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I’m voting for the Green party because of your post, thanks!
Congratulations on throwing away your vote. I’m sure the 0.2% of people who voted Green in 2020 will welcome you with open arms.
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/decision-2020/2020/11/05/howie-hawkins-gets-2--of-vote-nationwide--worries-of-party-stance-in-ny
You’re doing way worse than throwing away your vote, you’re voting FOR genocide. If you and other Dem voters who want to feel good about yourself weren’t cowards and voted Green we wouldn’t be perpetuating a genocide in the first place.
no, a vote for biden or a republican is a vote for genocide. a vote against both of them is a vote against genocide.
Any vote is for genocide. You’re voting for either a self avowed zionist (Biden) a literal Nazi (Trump) or throwing away your vote to allow the literal Nazi to win.
Those are your ONLY choices.
last time i voted green and biden won. what is the mechanic by which trump will win this time?
Not choosing a dog in this fight of the conversation overall, but to answer your point specifically, if the youth vote stays home and doesn’t vote.
Last election Biden won in key States by a few thousands of votes, with a high amount of young voters voting in those states.
A closer race? It ain’t rocket science.
False. I won’t be voting for genocide unlike you. A vote for Jill Stein is 100x more productive to Palestinian liberation.
A vote for Jill Stein helps elect Trump. Congrats, you just voted for genocide. Only here.
the analysis shows that perot actually hurt clinton’s margin of victory.
Not if you knew any Perot supporters… He was Ron Paul before it was cool. :)
https://fivethirtyeight.com/videos/the-ross-perot-myth/
your anecdote doesn’t debunk fivetgirtyeight
It helps that I was on the ground living it in '92, fivethirtyeight was not.
not really: eyewitness testimony is some of the worst we can ask for. you should ask carville, though, you don’t have to: he’s in the mini-doc i linked.
If you coerce/force someone to vote the way you want them to, then can you truly say we live in a free country?
There’s nothing stopping the Democrats from putting someone else up to run against Trump.
And don’t say no one else can be Trump, there’s a whole year still, and it’s going to be the undecided Centrists who decide who wins in any case, so you just need to put someone up that appeals to them mostly.
America isn’t that free of a country. Democrats were always going to run their incumbent. The time to choose a left wing candidate was the 2020 primary, which is why I was devastated when Biden won. I knew we would be stuck with him for 8 fucking years. The left didn’t turn out enough in that primary, and the establishment went with one of the worst choices.
The fact that there isn’t some popular Democratic alternative at this point means it will not happen. Biden has been the most left wing president in over half a century, and none of his shitty decisions have been due to his age. Organize with the DSA or promote left wing Democrats if you’re fed up with the establishment. Recognize that becoming cynically apathetic makes you a pathetic asshole, not a person who’s better than those that try.
It’s not centrists who decide elections by choosing a candidate, it’s the people fed up with the system who decide elections by choosing whether or not to show up for the vote.
Well I speaking towards from the pool of people who actually show up to vote, decide the vote. Not the no shows.
These days the two sides are ‘baked in’, so it’s going to be the undecided middle that decides.
I’m assuming that if the Democrats choose somebody else besides Biden, that the younger voters have more of a chance of showing up to vote, than with Biden.
No, it is never the middle that decides elections in the US. Democrats win when turnout is high, and Republicans win when turnout is low.
Know how AOC won her seat from Pelosi’s presumed successor who was considered unbeatable? She focused her campaign on unlikely voters. When she actually spoke to those people, they showed up to vote. That’s the path to victory for Democrats.
Hillary dominated with moderate voters in 2016. She was also an uninspiring elitist which led to terrible turnout. Biden wasn’t much better, but four years of Trump drove record breaking turnout,band Biden won.
It’s all about energy and engagement. Biden sure isn’t going to bring that next year, but maybe there is enough anti-Trump sentiment left to drive turnout. Of course Trump might not be the candidate. I think Biden might beat DeSantis, but not a slightly more obscure candidate like Nikki Haley.
You are right about the energy level scenario, but I wasn’t speaking towards that. I’m assuming that unless a candidate really screws up that everyone will come out to vote, since we’re very much in a party warish voting mode these days.
I was speaking about what the size and a large turnout vote, the people who are not already baked in for one party or another, always vote just for one party, and when there is a large turnout.
Basically everyone else, the centrists, those are rarely vote, those who literally jump back and forth and decide on a case by case basis based on the individual running in every election, etc.
Nobody is going to tell the sitting president not to run again, that’s a decision he needs to come to all on his own, and if he doesn’t, the DNC will not oppose him.
Actually if the warning signs were dire enough, the inner democratic party elites would push hard for it. Some are saying that the Cali Gov is already running a stealth run, being ready to jump in if Biden exits.
As a Cali native, Newsom would be worse than Biden. If he ran in a Democratic primary, he might lose California because Democrats here don’t like him that much. If the primary was between him and Biden, I would vote for Biden because he’s less elitist and has a better moral compass. Newsom honestly doesn’t seem to have serious principles beyond political success. He’s a distilled version of what people hate about Democrats.
Actually he was doing a lot better until just recently when he started supporting Biden, basically pissing off Californians as he moves to the middle for a national race. But historically he’s had good (for a Governer) ratings.
This article describes what I’m saying in full.
From the article…
.
Yeah he does come off is being slick and opportunist, and I hate saying what I’m about to say, but at the same time he’s a politician. /shrug
The kind of person I’d like to vote for never seems to run for office.
Newsom hate isn’t new. There was genuine worry he was going to lose his recall election, replaced by a radical Republican with a plurality of support from only those that voted for his removal. Left wing Democrats who were critical of Newsom united and organized to prevent a fascist rising to power. We put aside our gripes with corpocrats to prevent someone even worse from winning.
California is guaranteed for the Democrats in the modern era, so we usually sit on the sidelines of the fight for the presidency and hope other states make the right call. However, the recall race showed that we were also willing to hold our nose and vote for the lesser of two evils.
That’s part of why I get so frustrated by the anti voting shit. Biden is more of a genuine human being than Newsom, yet people fall for accelerationist propaganda. They delude themselves into thinking that not voting will strengthen the left when the opposite is true. The unreliability of young, left wing voters reinforces the establishment bias of not appealing to them. If they won’t even turn out for Bernie in the 2020 primary, why rely on them?
From the article…
Any governor in any state always gets some hate, but Newson popularity’s gone down allot just recently because of his support for Biden and his move towards the center for a possible national run.
In California? Highly doubtful (the italicized part).
I was here, and I saw that the local news pushed that angle (probably for ratings) but the people in the streets weren’t really saying that.
I actually agree with this, but, I think the nation should come before ideology, and definitely for party. And at the end, you have to do what you think is right, not what is best for a particular organization.
Bottom line, I don’t believe Biden is physically and mentally able to hold the office for another four years. He should leave with the thanks of a grateful nation for steering us away from Trump, and not cling on for another four years.
Give me another Democrat to vote for, and I’ll happily do so, or a good/decent centrist Republican for that matter. The choices we have to choose from these days are horrible.
I get the physical part of Biden being unfit, but not the mental part. I’ve not seen any evidence of his age making him less intelligent or mentally. He’s not physically well, but whenever someone says he’s senile, I automatically assume they don’t know what they’re talking about. “Senile” is not synonymous with “out of touch.”
With the recall, concern wasn’t just coming from some rando or only Democratic partisans. I heard it from respected political scientists. They thought Newsom was likely to win, but there was still great risk of a Republican governor getting elected without popular support. It’s how Arnold Schwarzenegger, a moderate Republican, managed to get elected. The Governator never could have won a Republican primary, and didn’t even win the popular vote. If it weren’t for serious campaigning in the last few months, the recall could have been close.
Newsom always had majority approval, but the concern about the recall came because people were only lukewarm on him. He isn’t an exciting candidate, which is what the left claims to want. Like I said before, Biden seems more genuine about his morals and principles than Newsom. Newsom is more of what the left hates than Biden.
You could join a party and vote in the primaries. It’s about the only way to make a change now it seems.
Or join the opposite party and try to send a message in that primary…
Not that it will matter when #2 is 30 points behind…
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Trump thanks you in that occasion.
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Oh, I’m a fascist because I don’t want trump to win?
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Well, let another even more genocidal ghoul win then if that’s what you want for your hellhole of a country and the world.
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Complete anarchy, because as much as Trump WANTS to be a fascist, his first term proves he’s not actually any good at much of anything.
The opposition to Trump’s fancy private police force in their black uniforms and snazzy gold trim, will result in the US becoming a failed state, and, yes, complete anarchy.
Fascism is, by definition, a right wing ideology. Biden literally cannot be a fascist, he’s not even authoritarian. If he were we would have already had universal health care and student debt relief by now.
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Fascism, by definition, is right wing ideology.
Biden is centrist, not right wing.
By definition he CAN’T be fascist, any more than Trump can be socialist.
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A right wing fascist candidate would not have pushed for health care, infrastructure, unemployment, stimulus packages, or education refunds, all of which Biden did.
Again, NOT right wing. Not even CLOSE to right wing, and that’s the “you must be this tall to ride this ride” for fascism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
“Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right (no), authoritarian (no), ultranationalist (no) political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader (no), centralized autocracy (no), militarism (no), forcible suppression of opposition (no), belief in a natural social hierarchy (no), subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race (no), and strong regimentation of society and the economy (no).[2][3]”
Point for point for point, Biden is not a fascist.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism
“they had many characteristics in common, including extreme militaristic nationalism (no), contempt for electoral democracy (no) and political and cultural liberalism (I WISH!), a belief in natural social hierarchy and the rule of elites (no), and the desire to create a Volksgemeinschaft (German: “people’s community”), in which individual interests would be subordinated to the good of the nation. (no)”
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
fas·cism ˈfa""-ˌshi-zəm 1
"often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual (no) and that stands for a centralized autocratic government (no) headed by a dictatorial leader, (no) severe economic and social regimentation (no), and forcible suppression of opposition (no)
2
: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control (no)"
Of the two 2024 candidates, only Trump meets the definition, NOT Biden.
If Biden WERE actually a fascist, Hunter wouldn’t be staring down a prison term and Biden wouldn’t be looking at impeachment hearings. A fascist would have shut that shit down already.
The problem with the internet is too many kids going “Well I don’t like it so it’s fascism!” that’s not how ANY of this works.
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“But he is far right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist.”
You don’t know what ANY of those words actually mean.
https://www.gale.com/primary-sources/political-extremism-and-radicalism/collections/history-of-right-wing-extremism
"It wasn’t until the 1950s and 1960s that the Far Right again began to rise, becoming a more dominant force with the formation of anti-democratic groups (not Biden) and political parties in the late 1960s and 1970s, including France’s Front National, Austria’s Freedom Party, and the UK’s National Front, which joined most of the post-war extreme right groups in the UK under one neo-fascist umbrella.
Right-wing extremism has continued its presence in the new conspiracism of a post-truth, pro-Trump American culture—predominantly taking the form of white supremacy groups (not Biden), such as the Ku Klux Klan (KKK) (Not Biden), who have had long histories in the United States. The KKK in particular, though first established as a secret society at the end of slavery, had a significant resurgence in the 1920s, staying close to the mainstream until the 1960s when a combination of the civil rights movement and wider political developments forced them into decline, with their remaining followers becoming even more extremist. Other uniquely American versions of Far Right extremism include the Christian Identity movement (not Biden) and white supremacist prison gangs such as Aryan Brotherhood. (not Biden)
The most recent iteration of right-wing extremism, the alt-right, has come about in the past few years with the growth of the internet and social media and is associated with right-wing terrorism. The alt-right continues the fixation on conspiracy, race, and white supremacy created by the extreme right-wing groups that came before it (not Biden), but differs in its lack of a physical place—with its followers communicating almost entirely online—and a new focus on ultra-masculinity (not Biden).
From conspiracy theories to white supremacy, far-right extremism has had a long, sometimes violent presence (not Biden) in Europe and America. The primary sources available in Gale’s Political Extremism and Radicalism series are essential resources for researchers looking to explore the nature of far-right groups and political parties—from major figures and events to examining the ideologies of these groups—using the propaganda they created to express new conspiracism (not Biden) and promote violence. (not Biden)"
Authoritarian -
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism
“Authoritarianism is a political system characterized by a controlling government and the rejection of democracy, human rights, and political plurality. It involves the use of strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in the rule of law, separation of powers, and democratic voting.[1][2]”
NONE of which applies to Biden.
Ultra Nationalist -
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultranationalism
“ultranationalism is essentially founded on xenophobia in a way that finds supposed legitimacy “through deeply mythicized narratives of past cultural or political periods of historical greatness or of old scores to settle against alleged enemies”. It can also draw on “vulgarized forms” of different aspects of the natural sciences such as anthropology and genetics, eugenics specifically playing a role, in order “to rationalize ideas of national superiority and destiny, of degeneracy and subhumanness” in Griffin’s opinion. Ultranationalists view the modern nation-state as, according to Griffin, a living organism directly akin to a physical person such that it can decay, grow, die, and additionally experience rebirth. He has highlighted Nazi Germany as a regime which was founded on ultranationalism.[3]”
Again, not Biden.
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The first step in effecting change is getting ranked choice voting and instant runoffs in every election. Good luck.
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or how about we overthrow our shit govt instead of participating in this fucking circus act year after year. also this isnt stupid shit its a genocide you daft cunt
fuck the usa fuck israel
Good luck with that.
this is what cosplaying as a revolutionary looks like
🤓
Fuck Biden, still voting for him because I’m not retarded.
You are ableist though.
Oh here we go. I’ll condense my thoughts down into a fun, fully animated, 20 second video.
Unless you do not live in one of the 7 states where your vote matters.
If your apathy opens the door to a Republican supermajority in your state legislature, then they can more easily a) strip rights from your friends and neighbors, b) assist in the ratification of amendments and calling of Constitutional Conventions, c) gerrymander away your power to influence Congress, d) remove your city’s ability to govern itself, among others. Down-ballot races can potentially affect all of us.
Every vote matters
Except in actuality where with the electoral college in play, states that have as few electors as Rhode Island have a smaller number of EC votes than every margin of victory in the modern history of presidential elections. You could axe any one state with that few number of electors and you wouldn’t change a presidential result of the last century or more.
The presidency isn’t the only office that matters.
Okay? My point is that the electoral college means not every vote will count, and that is a system that only effects the presidential. So saying, and I quote from who I replied to “every vote matters” still isn’t telling the whole story as much as something like “every vote matters except the votes for president unless you live in specific places”
How so?
‘my vote doesn’t matter’ is a self fulfilling prophecy. The more people actually believe that, the more they won’t go and vote and then indeed it doesn’t matter.
However if all the people that think that their vote doesn’t matter actually do go and vote, they would be a significant demographic.
It might not make a difference straight away, but thinks only happen if you invest in them.
Same thing with sports. If you support one team, it makes you more invested in the game itself. Your team might not win every time, but if you care only about winning you’re not a true supporter. It will make it easy more satisfying if you do win, though. And one day you will.
To add to this: if the opposition party consistently shows up to vote, the dominant party gets nervous, and has to focus on the chance of losing. Not showing up means they’ve truly won.
It also shows the opposition party that they can and should invest the time in supporting that area, because there’s people who haven’t given up yet.
Also, the president isn’t the only person on the ballot, and small races are where more radical third parties actually have a shot!
Congressional, state and local elections are held at the same time on the same damn ballot and absolutely matter. They absolutely will affect you and congress is arguably just as important as potus. It’s called being engaged, instead just complaining while letting others take the wheel.
But I guess whining counts as participation…
He’s technically correct. As long as the electoral college exists, many peoples votes effectively don’t matter because that state will always go one way. Once that occurs, the opposing votes are effectively erased.
Afaik the American special the electoral college votes for whatever the majority vote of that State is. So votes do count, towards that majority.
If everybody assumes that one party will win and doesn’t go to vote it will never change, if everybody who thinks that their vote doesn’t matter would do that, a change can happen.
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That was what I meant yeah.
Understood. You’re okay with that stuff happening in Palestine, but not the USA, because you live in the USA. Supporting tyranny abroad is a-okay because you don’t think it affects you.
“Who cares if we allow genocide to happen here because it’s already happening somewhere else” is such a fucking stupid take. You should feel bad.
There’s no way you could honestly interpret what I wrote that way. I’m responding to the fans of Joe who are openly saying “Who cares about genocide when Trump is worse?”
I do care about genocide, and that’s (one of many reasons) why I’ll be voting for Jill Stein, not Joe Biden.
So you’re voting for Trump, got it.
If he wins just remember that you share responsibility for his atrocities. Just like everyone else who let him win.
tehy said explicitly they are voting against trump: jill stein is running against trump.
The top level argument is that voting for anyone but Biden is effectively a vote for trump. Stein is effectively a democratic spoiler
but that’s not true. a vote for anyone who is not trump is by definition not a vote for trump.
Do you not know the concept of a spoiler?
If there can only be 1 winner, and there are 2 frontrunners who have the only real chance of winning, a 3rd competitor only takes votes from a frontrunner and has no chance of winning themselves.
As someone like Stein is mentioned as an alternative to voting for trump, therefore the person was never a trump voter, they were never going to ADD to Trump’s chances. Their only voting action is to either vote for Biden, or NOT* vote. By NOT* I mean not contribute to bidens vote totals.
Voting for stein is effectively a non republican voter staying home.
This is a major problem with our voting system, there can only ever be 2 realistic choices, and a third party vote has greater game theory implications than independent voters like to accept.
If you’re not familiar, the US uses a two party system. Not voting is no different than voting for Jill. There’s no difference between not voting for Biden and voting for Trump.
This isn’t true, even if Jill loses.
It shows the level of support for Jill’s platform.
If the Green Party gets 5%, they qualify for a huge government grant which will help them become a more viable party.
Jill won’t win. It’s slightly better than not voting but ultimately you’re just helping Trump.
my ballot often has 4 or more parties on it.
yes there is. not voting at all is NOT voting for trump OR biden.
wrong. voting for jill adds 1 vote for jill. not voting adds 0 votes for jill.
Unfortunately, when the votes are counted, whoever has the most votes wins.
It doesn’t matter if the “not Trump” vote gets split across 1 candidate or 4 candidates, if Trump gets more votes than any one of them HE WINS.
Trump - 40%
Joe - 35%
Jill - 15%
West - 10%
Trump wins. Even though “not Trump” is 60%.
Does everyone who voted for Biden share the blame for the atrocities he’s supporting?
Ah yes I remember when Biden ripped apart immigrant families and banned Muslims from travelling /s
Good thing you do remember since he’s still ripping apart immigrant families. Biden’s border policy is only marginally better than Trumps, he just doesn’t brag about it.
That’s a really fucking dumb straw man.
Obviously reductive comment is obvious
“That stuff” is going to happen in Palestine REGARDLESS of who the President is. Neither Biden nor Trump has an interest in cutting Israel loose.
The difference is what they will do HERE. That’s the differentiator.