Both can be true at the same time. Nothing exists in a vacuum.
No, that’s not an example of male privilege, period.
The bar is on the floor for men, and unreasonably high for women.
Women put some of those restrictions on each other, but largely as a byproduct of the society they were raised in.It’s a privilege in the same way that having a shoulder to cry on is a female privilege.
If you’re going to try to argue that society doesn’t push people into certain roles or to think in certain ways, or that men aren’t also involved in creating the parts of society that determine roles for women, then I don’t think we can have a meaningful exchange.
It’s a privilege in the same way that having a shoulder to cry on is a female privilege.
I don’t consider that female privilege. I think we just have different definitions for what privilege is or more likely where we draw the line. To me, privilege is something more concrete and impactful, like men being trusted more in leadership roles or women being more trusted around kids.
But they’re related. They’re different facets of the same thing: the roles and expectations that society forces people into.
Setting aside what you do and don’t think is impactful, the point is that these are expectations that society puts on people, and where these expectations come from is complex. Have you ever heard of the Five Whys? It can be a helpful way to look at these problems; it can’t capture the complexity but it illustrates that the causes run deep.
For example, there are some pretty easily accessible YouTube videos (podcasts?) on the history of the women’s fashion and cosmetics industries, and how they pivoted their marketing to great effect to sell products to women by pressing these kinds of expectations into society, and those marketing teams contain a lot of men. This doesn’t explain all of history, but it’s an example of what I’m talking about.
And always remember; hurt people hurt people.
Yeah, I understand all of that, I just don’t think we should be using the term “privilege” for every little echo of history. Are men’s pockets a form of privilege? Women are privileged to have more variety of tops? At a certain point, the term loses all meaning.
If by “loses all meaning” you mean “loses significance” then there is some truth to that, but I leave it up to the general opinion of the people who are put at risk by that loss of significance to decide when it becomes a problem.
Realistically I think that it was probably meant as a half joke, as in its funny in how unserious it is, but also a real criticism in how pervasive this kind of toxic behavior is.
I think that the reply, that men aren’t involved in it, is taking an willfully ignorant stance.I mean that using a charged term to describe a trivial issue or problem is a form of hysteria and drama-seeking. The issue being cited in the image is trivial and—as pointed out by the response—maintained pretty much entirely by women. There’s a point at which you have to stop blaming things on gender inequalities, because regardless of whether or not they can be traced back to cultural conditioning, the simplest solution is that you personal responsibility and stop conforming to them. The problem isn’t that other women will criticize you for wearing the same dress twice; they’re problem is that you care.
It’s the internalized beauty standards
Where’s the funny? Ragebait isn’t funny.
Oh I thought we were laughing about how this thing was posted here after it’s been posted like a hundred times on Reddit.
The first comment is a bit funny to me since it’s so ridiculous
Ragebait is false, it’s in the name, “bait”. Everything about the guy’s reply is true. You’re just mad a guy said it.
Thanks, that’s a great demonstration of what ragebait is.
Every other opinion is ragebait. What a cop out.
Yep.
you got it wrong im looking for the funny, not the ragebait
Just because you don’t find it funny doesn’t mean it isn’t.
Pointing out silly things other people do, is a huge genre. I don’t find physical humor funny but others do.
Just in case anyone is wondering how true this is, about 10 years ago, an Australian TV anchor decided to keep wearing the same suit and see how long it took people to notice.
After a year, no one had mentioned it.
That said, I agree with the man’s statement that it would overwhelmingly be women who criticized other women for wearing the same clothes.
an Australian TV anchor decided to keep wearing the same suit and see how long it took people to notice.
There’s a running joke in sitcoms, particularly with B-list characters, where a kid breaks into their house and finds a closet full of the same identical outfit over and over again. I know the Simpsons did it with Principle Skinner. I’m pretty sure Save By The Bell did it with Principle Belding. There was some 80s pod-person movie that used the trope as well.
There’s also a classic joke about groomsmen all dressing the same during a wedding, so if anything happens to the groom you just have the whole crew slide over to the right and keep on trucking.
I vaguely remember some Econ joke about guys being a fungible commodity.
None of these are intended to be complimentary.
it would overwhelmingly be women who criticized other women for wearing the same clothes
Definitely different standards. Although I’ve found this tends to take hold as women get older and start climbing the workforce ladder. You’ll find plenty of college girls (particularly during exam time) who give absolutely zero shits about their appearance. Also, when women are unemployed.
wait is this supposed to be a joke? thats what my closet looks like…
There’s a running joke in sitcoms, particularly with B-list characters, where a kid breaks into their house and finds a closet full of the same identical outfit over and over again.
More true for cartoons than sitcoms. Rosanne actually fought with the producers on her show to have her characters reuse outfits. She hated how supposedly working class characters on TV somehow never wore the same outfit twice. She even had some pieces of clothing get handed down to the younger actors when the older ones outgrew them. It’s a shame she became a right-wing loon, because she was one of the few people to make a realistic sitcom about working class people (only other one I can think of is Malcolm in the Middle).
It’s really hard to overstate how different Rosanne was when it first aired. They had money problems, they’d yell at their kids sometimes, they weren’t perfect. They were a “normal” family on TV that people could relate to.
Not only did they have money problems, but they absolutely affected the family. There wasn’t the “money isn’t really important” message at the end of the episodes so many shows go with. Money’s extremely important - especially when you don’t have it.
Being working-class was hard, and it had an impact in every aspect of their lives.
This, if money isn’t important, it simply means you’ve never been broke.
Or you’re young, dumb and in love.
It’s also really hard to explain that Roseanne used to be what appeared to be a sane and reasonable person with good ideas.
It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia was really careful about this in their earlier seasons.
And played on it in later seasons. I almost cried laughing at the bit where they had a 20 year time jump and Charlie was still wearing the exact same outfit, and they called him on it.
Wasn’t most of the wardrobe early on just their own clothing as well?
Some of it definitely was especially in Season 1.
because she was one of the few people to make a realistic sitcom about working class people (only other one I can think of is Malcolm in the Middle).
in the middle also did a fantastic job at this and i think better in some respects compared to malcom in the middle.
i also grieved when roseanne’s lunacy caused the show to end the 2nd time; i had identified with the show in it’s earlier run because the characters were expecting their electricity to be cut at the same time we expected it growing up in my own home and it felt like my tv home since then. i’m glad the connor’s are a thing.
I associate it with cartoons. Bart Simpson has been wearing the same orange shirt and blue shorts for 30 years now. I remember an episode of Doug where you see his closet and it’s like twelve identical sets of white shirt, green sweatervest, tan shorts.
The female characters in the Simosons wear the same clothes all the time as well, now that I think about it.
At the same time a local TV personality (Christiane Charrette) has been dressing the same way since at least the 90s and no one cares… She found something that fits her well and adopted it.
I swear Michael Che is running the same experiment. Every single episode it’s the same, including the tie.
If my wife bought a cute dress and only wore it once, I’d be annoyed af.
“Fast fashion” is a plague of waste. Wear your shit until it falls apart.
Most of my wardrobe is like 15 years old. I have like 6 “new” shirts aka don’t have visible signs of wear that I wear for work and social outings. Getting new shit to wear all the time sounds like hell to me. I hate shopping for clothes because I have hard time finding shit that fits right.
Even better, repair it before it falls apart.
There is this one dress she wore damn near had a heart attack first time I saw her in it. If she never did again it would be a crime.
I would be annoyed at time number 30. When she won’t wear the one I like. Because its a problem keeping it on.
I wish it was socially acceptable for men to wear the colorful stuff women do on formal occasions. It’s almost always black, white, grey or maybe dark blue.
I want things like paisley suits to be considered normal. Why not? It’s just a pattern.
I’m not saying it because I want to do it, I’m saying it because I want to see it. Make congress a sea of color rather than a bit here and a bit there.
This guy shops at Better Call Saul’s
I honestly wish more stuff that is shown on runways would make it over to men. There’s a lot of fun that can be had. Plain suits are boring, even if you add color to them.
First 3 look like final fantasy protagonists
That last one looks like a pirate and I want it
The middle one in top picture looks like a stolen star wars costumes xD
Oddly enough. The first place I saw this was 3yrs ago in a reddit thread on /r/funny, because they said it was only missing a light saber.
Last one rocks so fucking hard. I’d wear that shit to bed.
These days if I see something on a runway, I assume that’s the only time I’ll ever see it. But I like the designs.
These are from 2016, so I don’t think we’ll see this unless some fashion company resurrects the idea.
I wish it were acceptable for men to wear bright dresses.
I said that to my wife a few months ago, so she said “why don’t you try on some of mine?”
So yeah, I now have few dresses I wear around the house. They’re great. Nice and floaty.
Get a kilt for the out and about look, my good fellow. While wearing one will draw some looks, it is far more acceptable and good-looking and practical than an ill-fitting woman’s dress.
Shouldnt have scrolled to the comments.
Lad’s got the legs for it!
Kilts are the answer.
I’m very close to getting one from here
All power to kilt wearers, but I feel that it’s an inherently different thing. It’s a specifically gendered garment, a ruggedised, masculinised form of skirt that it’s acceptable for some men to wear. Cool though they are, they’re not as fun and floaty as a light skirt and a pretty dress.
Yeah, dresses are pretty comfortable. I did a couple of things in high school that I guess you could consider drag, except I was playing this old lady character I invented that would ramble on and on about very little in a Harvey Firestein voice because she also chain smoked.
Anyway, I wore dresses for that. They were quite comfy. It would be awesome if a man could wear a formal dress to a formal occasion and not get stares (unless the stares were at that amazing dress he’s wearing).
I don’t even see it as drag, because I’m not dressing as a woman. I’m a guy wearing a dress, not a guy trying to be a woman.
Because when you really stop think about it, it makes no sense that clothes should be gendered. What is inherently ‘female’ about a dress, beyond the expectation that only women should wear them. I mentioned that somewhere on here before, to which one guy mentioned that swinging dicks might be an issue, and right, two things: 1) underwear exists, and 2) I don’t know about anyone else, but my dick doesn’t swing that low. Perhaps I’m unlucky.
But yeah, the older I get the less sense it makes that we must dress in a specific way based on what genitals we have.
I kinda just want to feel like my clothes look pretty sometimes. Women can dress masculine with barely a mention, so why can’t I dress feminine sometimes?
That’s what I told the judge - Your Honor, I wasn’t impersonating an officer, I just look good in a uniform!
Sorry, I didn’t mean to suggest it was drag. I just was suggesting that’s what you could have called the times I wore a dress.
It shouldn’t be drag. It should just be normalized.
It’s cool, I wasn’t being pissy.
But yeah, exactly that.
Not me, I hear dresses can be drafty.
Depends on where you are, init. It was bloody glorious during the summer, walking downstairs, gathering a ball of cool air in the skirt. When it gets cold, wear leggings.
I feel like you can, however it seems men take themselves too serious when dressing well. If you take yourself too serious as a man, wearing for example a pink suit will make you insecure.
So dark, solemn colors are easier to accept.
I wear suits for work and have them dark, but my social suits are light and colorful ( light blue, purple) and regardless I’ll wear fun and colorful shirts with them.
I don’t know that you can in business or political situations. I think if a man showed up to a business meeting or a legislative session wearing a paisley suit, they would get screamed at about not having proper decorum.
Removed by mod
How exactly would we get food if we did that?
Removed by mod
I’m pretty sure relying on food stamps and soup kitchens is not a revolution.
And if you’ve ever had to survive that way, you’d know it’s fucking horrible. Especially if you have kids.
So I guess keep wishing because people don’t want to have to resort to that.
Yea I agree with squid that we should not consider the soup kitchen the place of liberation.
I would say as a guy who has dressed in colorful formal attire when I worked in corporate jobs that you don’t get punished. This meme is like when conservatives say “you can’t say anything anymore”. Obviously you can, and frankly most of the backlash is made up.
Especially if you have kids.
Exactly, I’m fine with being on edge, but its not right to force that on kids if you can help it.
Removed by mod
See: John Fetterman
I think he catches a lot of flack for his attire
He had to give up and wear a suit because they passed a resolution forcing it.
Remember the Obama tan suit debacle?
Also paisley all the way.
I had an ex tell me once that I wore too much brown and dull greens.
Since then I’ve been aware of my color choices and have a lot of “loud” colors in my wardrobe. I will even intentionally wear clashing colors and have made it a style choice.
I still have browns and dull greens, but I have fun with them now.
All that said, I’ll wear something until it starts wearing out then that’ll be relegated to chore/diy project clothes.
I once found a sick purple/red paisley suit jacket.
At the register my family pleaded I not get it. That it’s embarrassing to wear.
I feel you
My fancy shirts are colorful silk patterns. I got bored of the old traditional formal wear, and I like the attention I get now.
Congress is already a sea of color: green.
Bring back 16th century men’s fashion. Landsknechts were some stylish dudes
Colors yeah
Suits nah thank you
I’m doing my part, I’m a Hawaiian shirt guy!
Nice. I used to be, but I wear T-shirts that amuse me most of the time these days.
Dress like Saul Goodman!
Uh…it is en vouge I think. Depends on your audience, but most of the kids these days are wearing flamboyant suits and they look sharp.
I wouldn’t go to 80 olds on very nice retirement plans for fashion advice.
Perhaps consider looking for decorative belt buckles, tie pins, cufflinks and similar suit accessories. It might not be flamboyant, but it may make your day. It provides that extra touch.
Or bring multiple bow ties and change them throughout the party just to mess with people.
those are socially acceptable though, the post your replying to is expressing a want for wider social acceptability. Imo look at the formal kimonos and jackets worn in japan. Many of those were heavily decorated for both men and women.
I have always wanted a kilt. But it’s not socially acceptable where I live and frankly impractical 6 months out of the year due to well below freezing temps. No one would say anything directly to your face, but you would be stared at and talked about behind your back by everyone.
Any ideas on how to transition men’s fashion? Could start with elaborate patterns and decor on suits. Shirts already have patterns of flowers, or birds on em. Why not suits too?
I think something like this yeah. I think particularly more like formal jackets with embroidery or prints.
Wear flannel?
Every time my wife worries about not wearing the same thing, I get her to list any outfit the others were wearing last time.
It’s all in your head.
I’ve worn the same dress to pretty much every holiday and family event for at least the past 8 years. I don’t know if anyone thinks it’s weird or wrong. What I do know is that every person I’ve dated within that timeframe has told me that it’s their favorite of my outfits.
And that’s the closest I get to caring what anyone else thinks about it.
My wife had people asking if she was going to wear her awesome sequin dress to her Xmas party one year and were sad she was going to try something else, all of them older (40s-60s)
She and I both have only ever heard of this whole “don’t wear something to 2 events”, my mom (late 50s) has also never actually seen it in person. Maybe we’re too poor?
deleted by creator
To quote the immortal Al Bundy: ‘don’t try to understand women, son. Women understand women, and they HATE them’.
I wish women would wear more dresses either way. They look great. My wife used to, but we are 28 years together and she basically now wears the clothing equivalent of UGGs.
“you get the key to my heart, when you wear that sweet dress” Trent Reznor - NIN
I think there are healthy ways to encourage it. Take her out to a nice dinner. Dress nicely yourself.
But also, find her attractive regardless of the clothes.
This, and compliments
But also, find her attractive regardless of the clothes.
I usually find women the most attractive without any.
There’s something about when it’s just a little midriff or something showing…
“I’m wearing a shirt that makes a man want to buy me another shirt.”
Love Home Movies
What are you wearing that makes her feel like she should dress up? I’d bet you put as much effort into your outfits as the “UGG equivalent” as well.
This is completely true. I started dressing nicer, just because I wanted to look better, and my wife started dressing nicer shortly afterwards. We never even talked about it until much later, it just happened organically
Didn’t work for me. My wife just apologizes for looking homeless when we leave the house.
Ha! Well, better luck next time.
As in, with his next wife?
Haha! No. As in with whatever other issues he’s hoping to find an easy resolution for.
I wish women would wear more of what the individual woman wants to wear, as I do with my attire.
As a guy, I definitely don’t give two shits about anyone wearing the same outfit. Heck, I dress like a cartoon character: I buy seven identical shirts, seven identical pants and just wear that until things need replacing.
To an outside observer, it would look like I literally have one outfit that I wear for two months straight. I very rarely switch up a shirt when it’s either too hot or cold, but other than that, I like to keep it really simple.
Hi Tom Scott
You’re not far off. My basic outfit since 2020 is a pair of blue jeans and a burgundy polo shirt. I picked red because the previous series was blue, and also because I’m a Tom Scott fan.
I’m probably going to transition to green polo shirts for a while as it’s been red since the pandemic. But the next color usually is determined by whatever polo shirt I can find in my size, and in stock so I can buy five to seven of them.
I am a wildly boring person when it comes to fashion.
Love it!!
No one is interested (or should be interested how many different clothes you have at home). Or how many good friends did you ever make because they have been wearing different cloth every days for two weeks?
Your seven shirts and seven pants only last for 2 months?
No no - I’m saying that’s usually the longest uninterrupted stretch of me wearing identical outfits. I might throw on a sweater if it’s a REALLY cold day, or a T-shirt if it’s way too hot, but otherwise I’m rocking a plain burgundy polo shirt and jeans all seasons.
The clothes themselves obviously last much longer.
Clothes really don’t interest me much beyond being functional and fitting OK. I also don’t wear expensive brands. I do spend good money on good shoes though, as those are important for your feet health.
Ah, I see. I have been wearing a simple black T-shirt, a black pants that is either a jeans or a cargo pants and depending on the weather a sweater and a jacket for about 25 years now. Hence I am aware how long single clothes may last and was a bit confused, but that makes ydncd now.
Hello Steve Jobs
I think most people are missing the point.
For work I wear the same free t-shirt to support “brand awareness” once a week.
It doesn’t matter if it’s man or woman making the statement this is what matters: what sad fucking life are you living to notice what I wear every day?
A co-worker from years ago once said “if you’re noticing that I’m wearing the same shirt repeatedly, it’s more your problem than mine.”
I had a co-worker, in a different office than me, who had two of the same shirt. She decided to wear only those two shirts to work until somebody said something. A little more than 3 weeks later and someone finally commented on it.
This gave me a weird reminder of an elementary teacher I had that wore this animal print often (not like leopard print, but actual leopards on it?)
In hindsight, your question is spot on. I was an extremely miserable child to even take note enough to still remember that in a critical way. Not that I’m critical of it now, and I never said it to the teacher or anything. I gave her trouble enough in other ways
I wish I remembered her name now. Poor lady. She was nice
Even if we take the premise that woman judge other women for their daily wear for true I would not blame the women.
As far as I can see it’s taught to young girls to judge other people by their daily wear. It’s the system itself that enforces that belief that should be judged IMHO. And again IMHO that is not a gendered issue. This image gets reinforced by men and women alike.
As far as I can see it’s taught to young girls to judge other people by their daily wear.
Who is teaching them that?
Shitty magazines like cosmo and teen people for one. All those weird fashion blogs and celebrity media bullshit. Plus all the ethically dubious ways fashion brands market their products to get people to buy more clothes.
Then it’s reinforced by their peers and sometimes family.
Sadly marketing and advertising has steered cultural norms for way longer than it should.
The mothers… Then other girls.
Nature is competition, humans aren’t immune.(Or nearly as evolved as we think we are). Women historically haven’t been allowed physical competition so they found other ways to decide hierarchy.
It’s basically classism. It’s what upper class people have done for centuries at parties to identify which family has become poorer. Then this behavior seeped into the middle class through the media. Since gossip rags would judge celebrities based on their outfit. And middle class people copy that behavior to seem more upper class.
This is a misery of their own making, men have no hand in that!
That’s simply not true. That culture didn’t form in a vacuum. It’s the result of decades of marketing and other societal forces. Everyone bears some responsibility for all subcultures.
The people here who think that marketing doesn’t affect shit like this, or that they’re not affected by marketing, are exactly the kind of easy marks that marketing preys on.
We’re too busy doing the same thing to ourselves.
I mean it certainly depends on your social circle, but not really?
So there’s nothing you think twice about doing because society (specifically other men) will probably give you shit about it?
Sure, a healthy and confident person learns to ignore it – but it’s dishonest to say it isn’t a pervasive thing. Maybe you’re fortune enough to live in a place where isn’t it’s not as bad as elsewhere, but not everyone does.
I mean I try to chose t-shirts with a minimal amount of holes^^ (which is unfortunately a problem for merino-wool I like to wear (because comfort)). But other than that I basically give a shit, about what I wear, I don’t think anyone else cares much about it either, nor do I. It’s also not a thing that anyone spoke to me about it so I guess I’m fine?
I think it’s a lot of internalized pressure and overthinking about what to wear, so why do it, when no one really cares?
internalized pressure and overthinking
Yes, exactly that. What I’m saying it’s it’s a lot more common than it has any right to be – at least in the USA. I’m legitimately happy if you’re insulated from it and/or have the self confidence to see it for what it is and brush it off. I’m of the same mind on that in that I have the confidence to laugh at it and ignore it.
I’m talking about the men that don’t, and how unfortunately it’s a huge problem. My experience has been the opposite: I’m in a “skilled” male dominated blue-collar job: the amount of dysfunctional, toxic masculinity I see on a daily basis is wild. Even when I was “white collar” it was there, if to a lesser degree.
A lot of guys of all ages are deeply insecure and are falling into the “traditional manhood” grift to the detriment of themselves and those around them. The extreme examples like incels, Andrew Tate, right-wing ideas on “manhood”, “trad” idiots gaining momentum are a symptom of a far more widespread problem.
I guess that’s what I meant with “it depends on your social circle”.
I’m a programmer (in europe btw. not sure if this is really a culture thing) around cool dudes (in my job, as I think this is where all of this mostly applies), probably helps, that they don’t give too much a shit about “prestige” and clothing etc. as well. If I had to do with a lot of “VIP” trying to sell something, the situation may be different.
Well kinda sad to hear that, I think it’s much more important what the person is about “on the inside” (i.e. if talking bullshit, or being highly intelligent or super informed, arrogant, socially intelligent etc.) than how they look from the outside (I mean within limits, If I can smell the person from a far distance, it’s probably too much…).
Obviously the inside/outside thing often correlates. When someone always wears fancy-dancy suits with a tie while not required, they’re probably a douche^^, shallow or having to prove something otherwise (like “I’m very important”). But after a first impression I think the “inside” dominates the perception, and defines the person… That’s at least my assessment, and why I don’t give too much shit about what the person is wearing…
YMMV
Generally speaking, men aren’t as mean to each other as women are, but we’re also not as supportive.
We don’t even get multiple outfit options. We get
- a suit
- an innoticably different suit
You can make your own clothes like me (early 50s, married cishet male), then have people question your sexuality and try to hook you up with their guy friends.
I just like dressing the way I want to dress and sometimes I want a burgundy corduroy dress suit or neon trews.
Huge respect to people who can do that. I do like watching some sewing channels on YouTube occasionally as it looks relaxing. But I’m definitely way too busy and clumsy for that. I’d end up sewing two fingers together.
It also looks like an expensive thing, right? Whenever I see someone buying cloth it’s always wildly expensive. Not to mention the other stuff you need to make things properly.
Making your own clothing doesnt usually end up being any cheaper than buying it pre made but you can choose your own materials and tailor the fit yourself.
Its definitely a time thing though but modern sewing machines can cut down on it quite a bit.
Well, it depends on how you look at the price. Take the corduroy suit, for example. It took 4 meters of material. If I recall correctly, it was about €20/meter, plus the lining for another €40, so €120 in total. Then buttons, thread, and what not, MAYBE €20. I already own all the sewing equipment, so that’s not really a factor after multiple years, but let’s call that €60. Let’s say €200 all in. Then it takes about 12 hours for measuring, cutting, and sewing.
A similar “fast fashion” suit is around €250-300, then it needs to be tailored, so let’s say €350-400. I know what I’m about, so the quality of the handmade suit is better, with more precise and actually finished stitching, properly sewn on buttons, and much higher quality materials. It’ll last for years with proper care, while fast fashion clothing tends to fall apart quite quickly.
So it’s a bit cheaper in materials, a huge investment in time, but it fits perfectly and lasts much longer. Also no sweat shops.
Sounds reasonable if you’re comparing suits for sure. Especially since you can tailor it yourself and no doubt get a better fit than something off the rack.
I’m thinking more general like for example a regular shirt or pants. The jeans I’m wearing cost 35 euros, and I imagine I’d end up spending way more on material alone.
Now that you mentioned that suit twice, I’m just gonna ask: got a pic? I’m picturing something like what the Joker wears, but I imagine your suit is probably a bit less tacky :D
A tan suit
Tonight on channel 13 we have the hit game show: Toxic Cesspool or Surprisingly Reasonable? Today we’ll be looking at the comments on this Lemmy thread. Tune in for the exciting conclusion!
Don’t forget the popcorn!
reddit post (derogatory)
