Vegans consume fewer plants than anyone else. It takes a LOT of plants to raise a cow, pig, or chicken. From an economic point of view, meat is a way of refining mountains of cheap, plentiful, safe plant products into a scarce, harmful and addictive luxury product. This comes up a lot, you’d be amazed how many plants rights activists your average vegan runs into.
the same plants that are being fed to animals are the plants that we eat too. animals are mostly said crop seconds or parts of plants the people can’t or won’t eat.
Wouldn’t you need to decimate the population of cows, pigs, and chickens in order to reduce their environmental impact? This argument always invokes an image of Thanos wiping out half the universe in order to ‘save’ it, but the people making this argument never seem to be receptive to acknowledging this point and just hand wave this step away.
The population of livestock is artificially high because of meat industries. Additionally, all animals in a meat producing farm will be killed already. That’s the entire purpose. Simply slowing the reproductive rate of the industry would reduce the populations on a fairly short timeline. I’m a meat eater myself, but using the killing of animals as an argument AGAINST slowing meat production is not very logical.
Which would you prefer? A thousand people living freely or a hundred thousand people living in cages too small to stand up in?
Get outta here with pretending that big number = better. Those animals are raised in horrifying conditions explictly to be slaughtered. They wouldn’t exist in the first place except for the cruelty and greed of the meat industry. We routinely acknowledge that there are ‘fates worse than death’ for people, but when it comes to animals people seem to forget that. With the ending of the meat industry, fewer animals would exist, but they would be much better cared for.
You’re going to have to unpack this a bit more for me.
Edit: Ohhhh, you’re another one of those plant rights activists. Buddy, I eat plants for breakfast. You know what? Now I’m going to eat twice as many plants, just because it upsets you.
Real classy of you to do the toddler thing of sticking your fingers in your ear and going “la la la I can’t hear you”. (It’ll be an honor to share a spot on your block list with these other two fellas.)
Not a vegan: remember we raise a lot of these plants just as feed. If the reason to feed disappeared, so would the vast quantity of “not tasty” plants.
…what part of the food grown is for humans and the shit you cannot eat from it is fed to cattle do you not get? You also cannot grow most food where cattle graze, as it’s to rocky or hilly or has to little water for it other than grass…
How is that bullshit? I am not vegan, but that’s just a scientific consensus and a major reason why plant diet is way lower carbon than a meat diet. If you need to grow plant food for your animal food, eventually you have to grow way more plant food.
Most animals raised for meat consumption are fed with crops, notably soy, not wild grass.
Thinking animals raised for meat only consume resources (land (first cause of biodiversity loss), plants, water, energy) that would not be useful to humans anyway is undoubtedly wrong.
It’s less important that such arguments be factually accurate than that they are superficially convincing enough to distract the person giving the argument from thoughts and feelings they are unwilling to process.
We do not feed them food we can eat, it would be such a waste to do so. We literally feed them shit we cannot consume. Feeds are made from roots/stalks/inedible plants.
The vegan industry doesn’t like this, so they say well that land could be used for other things, when in reality it’s already being used for the food that we eat.
They are also fed grains and soy in varying percentage depending on regions and countries.
There is also still the use of land, energy, fresh water and the methane emissions typical of cows.
You can see that indeed, the USA does better than other countries on not dedicating crops to animal feed, but it is still about 14%, while the world average is around 40%. Isn’t that a lot that could be earned back?
The majority of the land used for cattle grazing is not suitable for farmland. It’s either to hilly or rocky or just plain doesn’t have great soil. Not to mention the level of crops it would require to feed people and the amount of people who just cannot sustain on a all vegan diet. There is a reason we are omnivores and not herbivores.
This is also covered by the study and the article I shared above. It would require using more lands for crops that feed people, but that’s ridiculously small compared to the land that would be regained from stopping animal agriculture, which is 75%. Just removing cows would do the vast majority of that.
Crops for feed can be regained and if most pasture land is inappropriate for crops, some are, so we would gain from freeing those too. Furthermore, this land can be given back to biodiversity, which will also benefit us in the long term, if just protecting biodiversity for the sake of it is not a good argument for you.
Again, I am not vegan, I mostly advocate for reducing, not forbidding, consumption proportionally to ecological impact. If some people for medical reason require meat, I’m completely fine with it, this would likely be a small percentage of the current consumption.
Omnivore, not obligate carnivore except for a few exceptions maybe, so we could use a low meat diet or a fully plant based diet fine.
poore-nemecek is based on misreading LCA studies. LCA as a measurement is not transferable between studies. poore-nemececk just went through and did averages. it’s not good science. it’s not even science.
This is also covered by the study and the article I shared above. It would require using more lands for crops that feed people, but that’s ridiculously small compared to the land that would be regained from stopping animal agriculture, which is 75%. Just removing cows would do the vast majority of that.
Again the majority of the land used for cattle is not suitable for crops. So unless you plan on putting houses on that land it’s not going to be used for anything anyways.
Crops for feed can be regained and if most pasture land is inappropriate for crops, some are, so we would gain from freeing those too. Furthermore, this land can be given back to biodiversity, which will also benefit us in the long term, if just protecting biodiversity for the sake of it is not a good argument for you.
O it would be great to have more biodiversity, we need all the insects we can get, but cows aren’t killing off our insect populations, growing crops and spraying pesticides are. Which don’t even get me started on organic…they use organic pesticides which are way more devastating to the environment.
Again, I am not vegan, I mostly advocate for reducing, not forbidding, consumption proportionally to ecological impact. If some people for medical reason require meat, I’m completely fine with it, this would likely be a small percentage of the current consumption.
In honesty, we need vertical farms and lab grown meat. If that could be pulled off then we’d be golden. I’m not against eating plants, but I’m not someone who likes that militant vegans come in and spew bullshit just because they want to feel morally superior to people who eat meat.
Omnivore, not obligate carnivore except for a few exceptions maybe, so we could use a low meat diet or a fully plant based diet fine.
The issue isn’t that we can’t, it’s that the majority of people already eat like crap, which meat helps fill in the blanks. If we went to all plant based, people would still eat like crap and be missing vitamin D and protein.
Also a good chunk of us are already eating a low meat diet because that shit is expensive.
The majority of the land used for cattle grazing is not suitable for farmland.
But why should land be treated in that binary? How much biodiversity is being destroyed just to keep cattle or some other animals instead of keeping it in its natural state?
In it’s natural state bison would have been grazing on it. That also doesn’t solve the gripe that vegans have which is that land could be used for crops, which really destroys the biodiversity of land. At least with cattle, you just let them eat anything that grows. Horses are usually terrible for biodiversity because people mow the land and want nice lush fields, were as cattle farmers don’t, they let the cows eat roughage which is actually healthier for them. They also rotate pastures a lot more than most horse people do.
Cool, can’t grow that shit where cattle graze. We also…once again do not feed things that we can consume to cows. It literally would be a massive waste of money.
What figures are you basing your ignorance off of? The majority of the plants humans grow through crop-based agriculture are fed to non-human animals. Animal ag is one of the largest consumers of fresh (ie “potable”) water. There are ten animals living in human possession for every human on Earth. Without intensive plant agriculture, we could not possibly feed them all. Grass and run-off is not what is producing your food.
And since we are specifically discussing the hypothetical suffering of plants, why wouldn’t you count grass? You’re triggered.
The majority of the plants humans grow through crop-based agriculture are fed to non-human animals
That’s a lie. 2/3 of the world’s crop calories go directly to people. One third of the world’s crop calories go to livestock, but that’s as the other user is mentioning, mostly crop seconds or parts of plants that we can’t eat.
The majority of the plants humans grow through crop-based agriculture are fed to non-human animals.
It’s not that clear, it depends on the country. See the part about share of cereals dedicated to animal feed in this link, it’s about 15% in the USA and the rest of the feed is byproducts of crops used for human reasons. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets
What figures are you basing your ignorance off of? The majority of the plants humans grow through crop-based agriculture are fed to non-human animals. Animal ag is one of the largest consumers of fresh (ie “potable”) water. There are ten animals living in human possession for every human on Earth. Without intensive plant agriculture, we could not possibly feed them all. Grass and run-off is not what is producing your food.
No they are not. They eat the shit we cannot eat, they graze the majority of their lives and we use non potable water to water them. The feed we feed them is not made with anything that a human could consume. It’s roots/stalks/inedible plants. This bullshit that keeps being promoted by vegans that everything a cow can eat is bullshit.
And since we are specifically discussing the hypothetical suffering of plants, why wouldn’t you count grass? You’re triggered.
Because your entire point was that vegans consume less plants than anyone else, which is basically saying “vegans are still better than meat eaters” it’s more hilarious dick wagging from you chods.
Lol I’m butthurt? Lol you vegans are fucking hilariously ignorant bunch. You’re like religious zealots too, all high and mighty with an ignorant levels of information being spewed to you.
This is the epitome of projection, FYI. All this wasted energy and impotent vitriol, railing against a non-existent evil (“the vegan industry?” seriously sad), defending the (actually malignant) status quo for free. It’s exhausting feeling so sorry for you
What status quo? Lol the majority of your food comes from small farms, not these mega corps that everyone seems to think exist. Farming is a fuck ton of work for little reward, it’s why most younger people are selling their parents farms vs taking over the business.
Because they’re not about minimizing suffering, it’s about being morally superior to meat eaters and letting everyone know about it. The post I replied to, literally made that a point.
If you think pigs, chickens and cows have the same level of awareness and perception as broccoli, tomatoes or potatoes than you’re the potato.
Humans have to eat and with the exception of a few minerals like salt, everything edible to humans is alive on some level. Vegansisn is making an ethical choice about reducing what causes the most pain fear and suffering in another. If I were to develop cancer, a tape worm or a virus should I also allow those living things to thrive as well or does “Uh, now what?” also apply to antibiotics?
The whole deal is that we get to eat the fruit, and in return we provide the seeds within with a nice nitrogen-rich deposition nice and far from the parent plant.
It’s not a death cult, it’s a sex cult. The fruits might be screaming, but not in pain
And the deal with Cthulhu is that he gets to devour whoever you’ve sacrificed, and in return he provides a benefit to the survivors: allowing them to live long enough to provide more sacrifices. It’s basically the same deal.
Also, if anyone reading this happens to be a seed on a fruit meant to be devoured by humans then I have bad news about your final destination: it’s rather a stinky place that is not in any way conducive to your growth. The cake is a lie.
The stinky place isn’t soil. It’s a sewer or a landfill, because that’s where human waste ends up. Neither can support plant life because they are devoid of light, just like the realm of Cthulhu.
Maybe hundreds of years from now we can synthesize nutrients without involving any living cells. At that point, it could be seen as unethical to enslave, murder and eat billions of microbial cells. For the time being, our life still depends on other living things, so better get comfortable with having mixed feelings about survival.
Doing chemistry by mixing chemicals is like fumbling in the dark. You tend to have ridiculously low yield, because you can’t really control which reaction takes place. It’s just a game of probabilities, which makes this gamble really expensive.
Living cells are doing chemistry the right way by combining specific materials and making specific products. Enzymes are very picky, but with them you can actually control the reactions. Making enzymes is just next level complexity and a story for another time.
There’s absolutely NO WAY, not even a scintilla of a percent, that the author did not expect the king kind of discussion we’re seeing here to take place. None.
Vegans: … uh… now what?
Vegans consume fewer plants than anyone else. It takes a LOT of plants to raise a cow, pig, or chicken. From an economic point of view, meat is a way of refining mountains of cheap, plentiful, safe plant products into a scarce, harmful and addictive luxury product. This comes up a lot, you’d be amazed how many plants rights activists your average vegan runs into.
…addictive?
Addictive like water and air are addictive.
the same plants that are being fed to animals are the plants that we eat too. animals are mostly said crop seconds or parts of plants the people can’t or won’t eat.
Wouldn’t you need to decimate the population of cows, pigs, and chickens in order to reduce their environmental impact? This argument always invokes an image of Thanos wiping out half the universe in order to ‘save’ it, but the people making this argument never seem to be receptive to acknowledging this point and just hand wave this step away.
The population of livestock is artificially high because of meat industries. Additionally, all animals in a meat producing farm will be killed already. That’s the entire purpose. Simply slowing the reproductive rate of the industry would reduce the populations on a fairly short timeline. I’m a meat eater myself, but using the killing of animals as an argument AGAINST slowing meat production is not very logical.
Which would you prefer? A thousand people living freely or a hundred thousand people living in cages too small to stand up in?
Get outta here with pretending that big number = better. Those animals are raised in horrifying conditions explictly to be slaughtered. They wouldn’t exist in the first place except for the cruelty and greed of the meat industry. We routinely acknowledge that there are ‘fates worse than death’ for people, but when it comes to animals people seem to forget that. With the ending of the meat industry, fewer animals would exist, but they would be much better cared for.
Ending the meat industry would result in the extinction of breeds we have engineered for meat and milk production.
Ending factory farming would significantly reduce numbers and increase quality of life for the animals.
Meat eaters are already decimating populations, they are Thanos with a universe conveyor belt, clicking every second.
Vegans: we’ll have only a little vegetable cruelty, as a treat.
Whatever keeps the high horse fed.
You’re going to have to unpack this a bit more for me.
Edit: Ohhhh, you’re another one of those plant rights activists. Buddy, I eat plants for breakfast. You know what? Now I’m going to eat twice as many plants, just because it upsets you.
Lol your reading comprehension.
Removed by mod
Oh no, you’re not better than anyone! Tragic.
Assholes like wiping shit off. Which is what the block button does to you.
Dumbest person on the internet today award goes to…… YOU!!! Congratulations 🎉🏆🎉
Either that’s true, and I can’t read your comment anyways, or it’s not and you’re a dipshit.
Real classy of you to do the toddler thing of sticking your fingers in your ear and going “la la la I can’t hear you”. (It’ll be an honor to share a spot on your block list with these other two fellas.)
I challenge you to make an appetizing meal out of the plants (and specific cultivars!) used as animal feed.
Not a vegan: remember we raise a lot of these plants just as feed. If the reason to feed disappeared, so would the vast quantity of “not tasty” plants.
https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/50901500/px-based_v3.2/educ-matrls/pdfs/HO_what-cows-eat.pdf
No we do not…this is bullshit propagated by vegans. You cannot eat the shit cattle do.
Yes, but I can grow human food on the same plots of land.
…what part of the food grown is for humans and the shit you cannot eat from it is fed to cattle do you not get? You also cannot grow most food where cattle graze, as it’s to rocky or hilly or has to little water for it other than grass…
Okay.
Step 1: feed them to a cow Step 2: you now have a fluffy pet cow Step 3: profit
Unless you count grass and non-human consumables and non-potable water…sure…until then that’s bullshit.
How is that bullshit? I am not vegan, but that’s just a scientific consensus and a major reason why plant diet is way lower carbon than a meat diet. If you need to grow plant food for your animal food, eventually you have to grow way more plant food.
Most animals raised for meat consumption are fed with crops, notably soy, not wild grass.
Thinking animals raised for meat only consume resources (land (first cause of biodiversity loss), plants, water, energy) that would not be useful to humans anyway is undoubtedly wrong.
Researchers Poore and Nemecek are a great source of meta-analysis information about those subjects. Check this summary here for example: http://environmath.org/2018/06/17/paper-of-the-day-poore-nemecek-2018-reducing-foods-environmental-impacts/
Let me know if I misunderstood your point.
It’s less important that such arguments be factually accurate than that they are superficially convincing enough to distract the person giving the argument from thoughts and feelings they are unwilling to process.
https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/50901500/px-based_v3.2/educ-matrls/pdfs/HO_what-cows-eat.pdf
We do not feed them food we can eat, it would be such a waste to do so. We literally feed them shit we cannot consume. Feeds are made from roots/stalks/inedible plants.
The vegan industry doesn’t like this, so they say well that land could be used for other things, when in reality it’s already being used for the food that we eat.
They are also fed grains and soy in varying percentage depending on regions and countries.
There is also still the use of land, energy, fresh water and the methane emissions typical of cows.
This is another break down of the above-mentioned study: https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets
You can see that indeed, the USA does better than other countries on not dedicating crops to animal feed, but it is still about 14%, while the world average is around 40%. Isn’t that a lot that could be earned back?
The majority of the land used for cattle grazing is not suitable for farmland. It’s either to hilly or rocky or just plain doesn’t have great soil. Not to mention the level of crops it would require to feed people and the amount of people who just cannot sustain on a all vegan diet. There is a reason we are omnivores and not herbivores.
This is also covered by the study and the article I shared above. It would require using more lands for crops that feed people, but that’s ridiculously small compared to the land that would be regained from stopping animal agriculture, which is 75%. Just removing cows would do the vast majority of that.
Crops for feed can be regained and if most pasture land is inappropriate for crops, some are, so we would gain from freeing those too. Furthermore, this land can be given back to biodiversity, which will also benefit us in the long term, if just protecting biodiversity for the sake of it is not a good argument for you.
Again, I am not vegan, I mostly advocate for reducing, not forbidding, consumption proportionally to ecological impact. If some people for medical reason require meat, I’m completely fine with it, this would likely be a small percentage of the current consumption.
Omnivore, not obligate carnivore except for a few exceptions maybe, so we could use a low meat diet or a fully plant based diet fine.
there is no reason to think this is going to happen. they’ll build a mall or a skyscraper.
poore-nemecek is based on misreading LCA studies. LCA as a measurement is not transferable between studies. poore-nemececk just went through and did averages. it’s not good science. it’s not even science.
Again the majority of the land used for cattle is not suitable for crops. So unless you plan on putting houses on that land it’s not going to be used for anything anyways.
O it would be great to have more biodiversity, we need all the insects we can get, but cows aren’t killing off our insect populations, growing crops and spraying pesticides are. Which don’t even get me started on organic…they use organic pesticides which are way more devastating to the environment.
In honesty, we need vertical farms and lab grown meat. If that could be pulled off then we’d be golden. I’m not against eating plants, but I’m not someone who likes that militant vegans come in and spew bullshit just because they want to feel morally superior to people who eat meat.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/how-to-maintain-a-balanced-diet-as-a-vegetarian-or-vegan#:~:text=Opt for vitamin D-fortified,Starting slowly.
The issue isn’t that we can’t, it’s that the majority of people already eat like crap, which meat helps fill in the blanks. If we went to all plant based, people would still eat like crap and be missing vitamin D and protein.
Also a good chunk of us are already eating a low meat diet because that shit is expensive.
But why should land be treated in that binary? How much biodiversity is being destroyed just to keep cattle or some other animals instead of keeping it in its natural state?
In it’s natural state bison would have been grazing on it. That also doesn’t solve the gripe that vegans have which is that land could be used for crops, which really destroys the biodiversity of land. At least with cattle, you just let them eat anything that grows. Horses are usually terrible for biodiversity because people mow the land and want nice lush fields, were as cattle farmers don’t, they let the cows eat roughage which is actually healthier for them. They also rotate pastures a lot more than most horse people do.
Yes, but inefficiently.
You go eat some grass/roughage and tell me how well that fills you up.
Pretty well, actually. Grasses like corn, wheat, rice, and oats make up a substantial portion of the typical diet.
Cool, can’t grow that shit where cattle graze. We also…once again do not feed things that we can consume to cows. It literally would be a massive waste of money.
What figures are you basing your ignorance off of? The majority of the plants humans grow through crop-based agriculture are fed to non-human animals. Animal ag is one of the largest consumers of fresh (ie “potable”) water. There are ten animals living in human possession for every human on Earth. Without intensive plant agriculture, we could not possibly feed them all. Grass and run-off is not what is producing your food.
And since we are specifically discussing the hypothetical suffering of plants, why wouldn’t you count grass? You’re triggered.
That’s a lie. 2/3 of the world’s crop calories go directly to people. One third of the world’s crop calories go to livestock, but that’s as the other user is mentioning, mostly crop seconds or parts of plants that we can’t eat.
It’s not that clear, it depends on the country. See the part about share of cereals dedicated to animal feed in this link, it’s about 15% in the USA and the rest of the feed is byproducts of crops used for human reasons. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets
No they are not. They eat the shit we cannot eat, they graze the majority of their lives and we use non potable water to water them. The feed we feed them is not made with anything that a human could consume. It’s roots/stalks/inedible plants. This bullshit that keeps being promoted by vegans that everything a cow can eat is bullshit.
Because your entire point was that vegans consume less plants than anyone else, which is basically saying “vegans are still better than meat eaters” it’s more hilarious dick wagging from you chods.
Lol butthurt misinformation troll
Lol I’m butthurt? Lol you vegans are fucking hilariously ignorant bunch. You’re like religious zealots too, all high and mighty with an ignorant levels of information being spewed to you.
This is the epitome of projection, FYI. All this wasted energy and impotent vitriol, railing against a non-existent evil (“the vegan industry?” seriously sad), defending the (actually malignant) status quo for free. It’s exhausting feeling so sorry for you
What status quo? Lol the majority of your food comes from small farms, not these mega corps that everyone seems to think exist. Farming is a fuck ton of work for little reward, it’s why most younger people are selling their parents farms vs taking over the business.
Are you saying grass aren’t plants? Why would it matter if the plant is consumable by humans if vegans are trying to minimize suffering?
Because they’re not about minimizing suffering, it’s about being morally superior to meat eaters and letting everyone know about it. The post I replied to, literally made that a point.
If you think pigs, chickens and cows have the same level of awareness and perception as broccoli, tomatoes or potatoes than you’re the potato.
Humans have to eat and with the exception of a few minerals like salt, everything edible to humans is alive on some level. Vegansisn is making an ethical choice about reducing what causes the most pain fear and suffering in another. If I were to develop cancer, a tape worm or a virus should I also allow those living things to thrive as well or does “Uh, now what?” also apply to antibiotics?
deleted by creator
Eat people because they’re potatoes, got it!
Or wait, it’s “than”? Hmm…no, I can’t think of how to turn it into a joke with a punchline of “than” being there instead of “then”, lol
Eat fruits, the plants give those to you specifically to eat.
In the same way that cultists give human sacrifices to Cthulhu specifically to eat.
I’m pretty sure the fruits are screaming too.
The whole deal is that we get to eat the fruit, and in return we provide the seeds within with a nice nitrogen-rich deposition nice and far from the parent plant.
It’s not a death cult, it’s a sex cult. The fruits might be screaming, but not in pain
They yearn for your colon
:
And the deal with Cthulhu is that he gets to devour whoever you’ve sacrificed, and in return he provides a benefit to the survivors: allowing them to live long enough to provide more sacrifices. It’s basically the same deal.
Also, if anyone reading this happens to be a seed on a fruit meant to be devoured by humans then I have bad news about your final destination: it’s rather a stinky place that is not in any way conducive to your growth. The cake is a lie.
It’s not even remotely similar.
Also, that “stinky place” to us is heaven to a plant. Kinda how the foul oxygen they excrete is life-giving air to us.
The stinky place isn’t soil. It’s a sewer or a landfill, because that’s where human waste ends up. Neither can support plant life because they are devoid of light, just like the realm of Cthulhu.
Doesn’t change the plant-animal arrangement from the perspective of the plant, it’s still freely given. We just hold up our end through agriculture.
It’s freely given by a plant just as human sacrifices are freely given by a cult.
I’m screaming, and the things consuming me can’t.
What? The fact that plants physically react to being cut has absolutely no bearing on whether they have conscious experience.
Well, not in any way that we can relate to anyway. But that was the same with animals much earlier.
Haha as always, you do what you can
Won’t someone think of the plants feelings?!?
Time to start eating bacteria now, I guess.
Maybe hundreds of years from now we can synthesize nutrients without involving any living cells. At that point, it could be seen as unethical to enslave, murder and eat billions of microbial cells. For the time being, our life still depends on other living things, so better get comfortable with having mixed feelings about survival.
Technically we can, it’s just so expensive as to be completely out of the question.
Doing chemistry by mixing chemicals is like fumbling in the dark. You tend to have ridiculously low yield, because you can’t really control which reaction takes place. It’s just a game of probabilities, which makes this gamble really expensive.
Living cells are doing chemistry the right way by combining specific materials and making specific products. Enzymes are very picky, but with them you can actually control the reactions. Making enzymes is just next level complexity and a story for another time.
But they’re working on it!
Personally, I’m still just waiting on lab meat.
Isn’t that basically what nutritional yeast is?
No, yeast is fungi.
Same concept, though. Grow microbes in a vat and eat them.
This is exactly the response the author was hoping for.
No, it doesn’t.No, it isn’t.
Doesn’t what.
You’re right, I should have written “No, it isn’t.” Fixed.
So, no, it isn’t the response the author was looking for.
Fair.
Disagree, but fair.
There’s absolutely NO WAY, not even a scintilla of a percent, that the author did not expect the
kingkind of discussion we’re seeing here to take place. None.