I’ve never “debloated” Windows so idk about the top half.
The bottom half is accurate. Debian, Fedora, and Mint are easier to install than Windows 10 or 11. Not that Windows is difficult, it’s just a bit clunky and idiosyncratic.
I assume Microsoft doesn’t care much about the installer since it’s generally only used by OEMs, whereas for Linux distros it’s a first impression so it has to be polished.
No excuse though. Try the “install as oem” of Linux Mint. You get an install with temporary oem account, you can update the system, install additional programs, then click “Prepare for shipping to end user” and on next boot you’re greeted with a setup screen.
That sounds pretty nice. More installers should have something like that
Well, if you want accuracy, then no the meme isn’t really that accurate.
On an updated Win11 system the Shift+ F10 command prompt “OOBE\BYPASSNRO” trick still works to setup a new system without Internet (and by extension, without a MS account) so that’s like most of the battle right there
The rest is taken care of with your choice of debloat scripts that are out there
compared to clicking “next” on Fedora, Debian, or Mint
I’d say using a simple straightforward GUI is much easier than an arcane combination of commands and keypresses
Wait, did we just reach a point where a command line input is needed for Windows and Linux just needs to press a few buttons??
I can’t find it now, but there was a meme about that here. How 20 years ago vs present the two are flipped.
Only if you don’t count installing drivers
Well, I didn’t say it should be ranked towards the bottom lol, if we want to make this graph accurate it would be below arch but above “Windows the normal way”
I think i misunderstood you my bad
If you install arch with the archinstall script you basically get a setup wizard
And installing a Microsoft-account-free Windows install is only the first step of de-bloating the system. So I’d say debloated Windows in somewhere between Arch and Gentoo
I used AtlasOS on my windows partition. Had to cause for some reason steam streaming was borked and would only black screen. And now I’m too lazy to swap back over to cachyos. Lmao. Waiting to see that bug is fixed.
I had to install Windows 11 on something a few weeks ago so I decided to do it without an account, it was nowhere near as difficult to do it as this sub would lead you to believe. Pressed a key combination to load up the command prompt then typed in a relatively short command. The GUI restarted and that was it.
Yeh, it’s there.
But Linux installers would straight up ask you. So you don’t even need to hit the CLI
Almost everyone using Linux installed it. Almost no one using Windows installed it.
You don’t think that many people build their own Windows PCs? Linux gaming isn’t that old in the grand scheme of things, and there’s plenty of people who dual boot for various reasons.
I’d almost be willing to bet that there are more people who’ve installed Windows on their PC than there are people who’ve installed Linux from a pure numbers standpoint.
Most gaming PCs are pre built. Boutiques have been a business for decades. And every major PC OEM has a gaming division.pc building is niche.
PC building is niche, yes, but do you think “almost no one” builds PCs, like OP said? And that’s not even including the people who’ve had to install Windows on a pre-built system for one reason or another.
My point is that OP sounds like a smug Linux user shitting on people who use Windows. Even 5% of Windows users is too big a group of people to be described as “almost no one” simply because of how big the userbase is. That would be like saying, “Almost no one installs Linux” because Linux only makes up a small portion of the worldwide PC userbase.
I build my own systems. And I dont know what y’all are smoking but a typical windows installation has the complexity of opening a jar of pickles. Next next yes and away we go.
Linux on the other hand…
Now, if you want to debloat and install without a ms account then yes. But then… Really… Who does that? (i mean of the typical windows users
Avoiding MS account and many manual parts of the installation (opting out of shit) is like two clicks in Rufus before installation. Everyone should do it.
That’s what I’m saying. Windows installation is idiot-proof. And I’m sure there’s enough people who maintain their own systems or at the very least have had to install Windows for one reason or another that to say that “almost no one” who runs Windows installed it themselves is just the “Linux Master Race” talking.
Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSuse, Debian, Mint are also next, next, yes
But those pickle jars also use your monitor’s native resolution
Windows on the other hand…
and all of those numbers combined will still be less than 5% of users.
The latter usually have someone to install it for them.
Mac users:
Well Mac users do too… Well they don’t… but someone does.
I was that someone for some family members. I felt icky the whole time.
I once upgraded a girl’s parents’ computer to System 8 and didn’t realize it wasn’t supported. Fucked up the BIOS (or whatever Macs used back then) and they had to ship it back to Apple to get fixed. I did not hear from her again.
But I haven’t actually installed Mac OS since about Puma. New operating systems just come down in the normal software update. But I still cherish my OS X Beta DVD.
A couple months ago my sister bricked her mac somehow… it wouldn’t boot past the stupid white screen with a ? on it.
Had to edit random shit on the built in installer to get it to talk to apple correctly and pull the correct OS image to fix itself. It was a full OS install/recovery.
Easy enough because I understand linux/unix and underneath that’s all it is… but mac users are just stupidly lost… And to get to some of those tools, because they’re so buried underneath the “MAC experience”… it’s a pain in the ass too.
I can’t be bothered to remember what version it was… I hate touching macs. I only did that one cause it was my sister.
Easy enough because I understand linux/unix and underneath that’s all it is… but mac users are just stupidly lost… And to get to some of those tools, because they’re so buried underneath the “MAC experience”… it’s a pain in the ass too.
As a Mac user with over 20 years of experience using Linux for Fortune 500 companies and major government agencies: Most people are stupidly lost, regardless of the OS they’re using.
Question mark standardly means it can’t find the drive. Used to be hold down the alt key to select boot drive. If nothing comes up still plug into Ethernet in some manner, then boot again with alt, should pull an online os installer that will bring you to the disk utility and such. Can troubleshoot the drive from there and figure out if it needs repairing / formatting / replacing
Where does a Hackintosh fall in?
At the top because you risk going to jail for violating the Apple terms of service/end user license agreement.
lol. They only ever pursed anyone for selling Mac clones or hardware for doing it. And the hardware was just a preconfigured usb drive with a motherboard connector on it. I think there were actual Apple devs moonlighting as hackintosh contributors.
You do not risk going to jail, come on lol. People are so dramatic about doing the most minor unenforced crimes I swear
Windows requires pressing next 12 times, what are you people smoking and can I haz?
There’s also a number of things you have to click “no” on, like a free trial office or Onedrive.
It took me around an hour to set up my new Win 11 laptop, most of which was downloading and installing updates. I expected far worse.
Oh please, we spend an hour fucking around in a new Linux install to get things the way we like them too.
A new Linux installation is usually usable and you spend an hour tailoring it to your specific needs. While in a new Windows installation I spend the first hour remembering things that’ll start popping up/executing in the background and disabling them just to get it to a usable state.
Just learn how to install windows the way you want it to be just like you learn the best way to install a distro. Debloated windows takes minutes to install and takes so little actual effort if you know what you’re doing.
I probably cannot get Windows to be the way I like it. They make every change I want to make a pain, and the ways to circumvent their shenanigans are always changing. Setting up a local account, changing your default browser, stopping onedrive from wasting your time, all of these should be quick and simple changes, but they just wouldn’t let you choose for yourself, they have to shove their products and settings down your throat with every new installation, update, and misclick. I spent more than an hour setting up a new installation and I still find new ways Edge can start itself, I cannot imagine the time it would take for me to make this as usable as a simple Linux installation with some changes to the DE.
All of these changes you list can be achieved in a couple of clicks.
Don’t know what you are smoking my dude.
At some point changing the default browser required setting each file type’s default app one by one. Using a local account once was a normal option then it became hidden and required setting up some questions then you had to disconnect from Wi-Fi and now it’s not a visible option and you have to get around it with some command. This may take you some clicks when you’ve already installed Windows before, but it’s heading towards simply not being an option, and setting up a usable Linux installation is already much easier today.
Man, people are really liberal with the word “usable” around here. As if a plain windows install is somehow this thing that can’t be understood or used. Come on, it makes it hard to take these convos seriously. Millions of people use just plain, out of the box, Windows.
No, see: some of us spend countless hours setting up their NixOS config repo, which is totally worth it because you save half an hour when moving to a new machine
I would argue it takes even longer to get a windows install how I like it. Even using Chris Titus Tech’s tool, it probably takes 2 hours for me to install things like winget, steam, librewolf, libreoffice, blender and configure the task bar and lock screen. Not to mention how last time I checked, I could not rebind the windows key to trigger the app overview how I like it.
How often are you installing windows? I deploy probably 7-8 a week. I can have an image usable without telemetry in 10 minutes.
I seldom install windows, so I also have to relearn some things during the debloat. At 10 minutes, you are basically speedrunning the windows installation process lol.
That’s not windows tho, that’s setting up your entire fucking digital life to your satisfaction. The meme is about like, going to the task bar and telling Microsoft “no this isnt just a shitty gnome, please use my entire monitor”
For everything else just use winget-ui and install everything you want
How I want a windows install is “working, with no BS”.
It comes out the box working, all I needed to do was disable Onedrive on boot. I haven’t even bothered to change the background, and probably won’t.
Getting Mint the way I like it takes about 20 minutes, including the install itself.
Of course, I usually spend four or five hours trying other distros first, before eventually deciding on Mint.
Thaaaaank you for being the fucking voice of reason
And downloading updates is a good thing. Means that the fresh installation isn’t vulnerable to something that was fixed between when the USB / DVD was pressed and the time the person installed it.
Yeah, and you can wander off and do something else in the meantime.
The updates often do take many times the install time which can be a bit frustrating, though it is an area being worked on: https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/windows-itpro-blog/introducing-windows-11-checkpoint-cumulative-updates/4182552
It’s honestly not that bad, it’s not like you’re required to actually do anything while this is happening.
See, Ubuntu only requires pressing next 6 times, and Fedora is only 8.
That’s essentially what it boils down to nowadays.
Unless you want tpm backed full disk encryption in which case… Good luck
One click for Mac and windows, a lifetime of fun for Linux (except arch w/sysdboot which works pretty good)
I’m happy with regular password FDE, i think i’m more likely to encounter hardware failure (and then need to read the drive from another machine) than theft of the drive.
It’s a good point though, I’m sure many people do need this feature. Ubuntu is “working on it” but so far i guess it’s mostly not working except for VMs
I have a media center that serves over the internet via VPN, I don’t want to leave it unencrypted but I also don’t want to have to go home and type in a pass every time California has a power outage, which is monthly during the dry fire season and >monthly during the “storm” season. I wouldn’t care as much for my personal laptop or anything, but for servers it seems like an absolute must have and…what is Linux for if not servers?
I think the traditional way to do that is via dm-crypt, which you can set up with an ssh server.
You can also use a network-shared file rather than a password for LUKS but it’s not as straightforward to set up as a password. If you are doing something like tailscale then it’d be unlocked as long as you are on the VPN
Typing in a password in-person at a data center would be a huge hassle, agreed
But…it’s literally what the tpm chip is for. Like there may be other options, but the tpm chip’s purpose in life is to do this thing. And it’s been doing that for a decade. Seems pretty traditional to me. But Linux folks in some venues treat it like a plague that needs to be eradicated.
Looking at RHEL docs it seems to also work there. The same instructions probably work in Fedora but idk I’ve never done it myself
But then you have to wait 45 minutes for Windows update to spin, and potentially hang in the middle
Is it difficult for you to wait?
No, that’s fair. Annoying but not difficult.
Biased as fuck lol. Installing windows is not difficult. I did it first time at the age of 8 witn WIndows 98 and their newer installers are made so the general public can do it. And the bloat and spyware? Thats windows dude. Its not meant to be your OS, its meant to spy on your ass at the benefit of being familiar and (relative) easy to use. Anything you do to it post clean install is your own tinkering. Linux distros are great yall, but install difficulty is not a metric I would use to attack windows. Comparing between distros makes sense.
This doesn’t say it’s difficult, just says there are others which are less difficult. Even if you accept everything at default, windows installs take much longer.
I’m not sure why you even think this is an attack on windows really. You keep saying windows is for those who want easy to use, so why not include the whole process?
Longer != difficult. Windows installs are easy as fuck and id say its as simple as linux mint.
The debloating is a choice and id say thats the same amount of work as installing stuff in linux because what it comes with is very limited.
Im a linux mint user btwIt’s easier than even mint. Because I’ve installed windows dozens of times and it has always worked out of the box. Always.
Friend gave me their old laptop that was sluggish and asked me to reinstall windows. I proposed Linux and promised them it’d work even better, they reluctantly agreed. I install mint. Sound not coming through headphones. I update everything that’s there to update, tried a bunch of shit and waste like an hour before I finally find a thread that suggested manually updating to a newer kernel version. That fixes it.
Now I know something extra for next time but if it were someone less stubborn, they’d have given up and went back to windows. Most people don’t know and don’t care about debloating, trackers and whatnot.
Tldr; Windows is the easiest OS to install because it works right out of the box. Many Linux distros are even easier to install, but don’t always work out of the box.
Exactly. Linux mint was fine on my laptop, but only later i had to upgrade kernel for the amd drivers, but overall its the closest to a spotless experience ive had. But what you said is 1000% correct!
I believe you, but my experience is the opposite. Generally wifi doesnt work ootb on Windows for systems i’ve set up, and newer games are crashy until you install the latest chipset drivers. The drivers Windows installs seem to be many versions back and have been unstable IME
on Ubuntu or Fedora i’ve not had a single issue in over a decade. Not one time has a component not worked for me on the first boot. It’s been truly flawless. Games work at full performance right away.
My only possible explanation is that we must be working with pretty different hardware
Linux has made leaps and bounds with usability and ease of installation but it’s no better than any other modern OS - which is a good thing. Installing Windows from a USB stick is not difficult - the simple path is literally, pick a language, select your wifi, choose who is logging in, click install and go grab a coffee. About the only difficulty if you can call it one is that some installs will ask for a serial number because it’s a commercial product.
Also, the number of questions & buttons during installation is one thing but the certainty of a functioning system is another. Linux is better at supporting old hardware, Windows is better at supporting new hardware. Choose accordingly if that matters.
It can be quite difficult for puzzling reasons. I bought my laptop with no OS because it was cheaper to buy a Windows license separately. I downloaded the ISO and put it on a USB drive and … It wouldn’t boot. It took me half a day and I had to follow guides with various black magic which I can’t even recall what was about to finally get the thing to boot from USB. After spending over a day on that, I installed Ubuntu and set up dual booting in about 30 minutes.
I kind of miss the Win98 install process. I did it so many times… Tried making a Win98 virtual machine, but it just wasn’t the same without all the real floppies. The boot disk, the drivers. The JazzJ Jackrabbit shareware. Good times.
Linux installs like Ubuntu take about 20 minutes.
The last time I installed windows 11 (thank God only once) it took me a total of 7 hours divided over 3 days. It was hell, requiring multiple iso downloads, multiple tries to burn a USB with a variety of tools, loads of searching and reading documentation, multiple BIOS settings and a BIOS update, multiple install attempts, searching, downloading and installing drivers, then finally on the winning install it still took like an hour with god knows how many “fuck off and do your job” clicks.
Mind you, this was on the same machine where right before I installed Linux on a separate M2 device
Windows installations are a horror show.
would love to see some actual market research on this. sit down a sample of users, have them install then use some OSs. interview them on their experience. rather than yknow making up data
well people dont actually install OSs
Not data, It’s a meme
the only thing cooler than a meme with fake data is a meme with real data
So, a chart?
like this
Uuh yeah that can’t be right. The US isn’t even 20% of the world population, how can their prisons have even more people than that?Edit: never mind, I didn’t read properly
no, you read that correctly, theres currently 2 billion people in the US prisons :p
Even better if made with multiple ussr groups, including tech-savy and people who never installed an os before, as well as people already used to windows and linux.
i was on a instance called kbin.cafe after fedia.io moved to mbin, for no reason. did it turn into a lemmy instance without redirect?
no i don’t think so, probably just a coincidence. i have never used kbin or mbin
This sub is delusional
Like every linux community. Living in a bubble that doesn’t exist.
Why?
Installing any operating system is often a hassle. This comes in part from my own experience trying to understand the unguided partition recommendations of a Bazzite (basically Fedora on low level) install. I got through it, but it was certainly no easier than Windows.
Do you mean using your existing Windows install, or installing it from scratch?
I’m not sure what you mean by an existing Windows install. If you mean going through launch screens on a new device that’s configured the OEM setup, then no, I have experience (granted, now in the past) with doing Windows installs from blank drives.
That answers my question, I meant the latter.
This isn’t true. Try Linux Mint or Ubuntu, their installers are much better. Those installers used by Fedora, RedHat, and even SUSE can be a bit weird.
They specifically say unbloated Windows as well which while it’s not as difficult as they make out is still somewhat annoying.
I’ve recently had a Windows installer fail to see my NVMe drives until I changed some random UEFI setting because it was missing a driver. Linux could see it just fine, as could Hirens boot.
Not to make a “Gotcha”, but Linux Mint was the other distro I tried, as I’ve complained about before. The first release I tried, which was less than a year old (on a 2+ year old computer) didn’t even run the wifi, audio, or bluetooth drivers correctly.
And, I had that same type of UEFI setting on Linux; Mint wanted to install on a GPT drive record, when my old drives (on Windows) used an MBT. It’s a conversion process both OSes will help with, but Mint gave some errors with it, and it was honestly easier to use Windows’ tools to get it done. Not even sure why Mint was insistent on it. Oh, and a mostly distro-agnostic annoyance: While attempting that conversion and making extra space for the GPT format, I ended up wiping more of the drives than needed during conversion because the partition manager used on several distributions uses bad messaging, and incorrectly refers to an individual partition under /dev/nvmesda0# as a “device”.
UEFI won’t boot from MBR drives unless it’s in BIOS compatibility mode. What format the drive is in isn’t determined by a firmware setting, though it can affect the boot process. I don’t think you actually understand what you are talking about here. The easiest way to install OSes both Windows and Linux is by wiping the drive, which would have solved this issue. Dual boot on single drive configurations normally have issues and will always be more complicated. It’s better to use two drives where possible in most cases. I suggest you read up on BIOS vs UEFI and how partition tables work if you want to do a complex setup like that.
Mint is known for having older kernels and therefore not supporting the latest hardware. They have a different edition for newer computers called Linux Mint Edge edition. Something Arch derived like CachyOS or another distro using recent kernels will always have the best support for bleeding edge hardware. The CachyOS installer is also pretty friendly, though maybe not as much as Mint.
Note that my post said “old drives” - plural. Mint was being installed on a secondary, formatted drive, and refused because that drive was not GPT-formatted (that record exists outside of the filesystem formatting). At the time, the BIOS was not set to force UEFI, so this was Mint’s decision, not the BIOS’s, and I don’t understand it. I left Windows alone on a different drive.
Believe me, I did plenty of reading up on BIOS UEFI settings just to resolve the issue. I still don’t claim to be a master, but I at least know enough to express how annoying the reconfiguration can be - independent of which OS you’re choosing.
Actually no. It’s not Mint’s decision whether to start the install USB with UEFI or BIOS. It actually depends on what the firmware chose to start and how the install medium is formatted. Some install media is only setup for BIOS booting, some for only UEFI, and some can do both. If the firmware detects the medium as supporting both then it should choose UEFI first but this depends on what settings you have in the firmware, and if you choose an option at a boot menu as boot menus allow you to override the default. When it comes to actually installing the OS most sane installation software will look at how it booted and install that way. So if it detects it was starting with UEFI it will configure the install to be UEFI, same if it was started with BIOS it will install as BIOS. How does it know? UEFI variables are one way. They can normally only be accessed if the system was started with UEFI.
If you truly wipe a drive you wipe the partition table as well. You say the table is outside the file system formatting, and this is sort of true, but they are both just data on the disk. Disk don’t care where the partition table ends and the file system begins. In fact you don’t even need a partition table at all. Unlike some other systems Linux will let you put a file system straight on the disk, the whole disk, with no partition table in sight. It’s not recommended mind you, because it will freak Windows out if it sees it. Windows will see it as a blank disk and not so helpfully offer to format the thing. When I say format a disk, I mean the whole thing, partition table and all. It’s also not possible to make a partition tableless disk bootable in UEFI. In BIOS it’s possible though as BIOS doesn’t read partition tables. It just needs a boot sector and that’s it.
Also if you’re trying to change a disk from MBR to GPT, and you don’t care about data, you shouldn’t be converting it. You should be formatting/wiping the whole thing and making a new partition table. Which is normally what it offers to do if you tell it to erase everything and install it.
Edit: Getting down voted for actually knowing how computers work and bothering to explain it. Shock horror.
Ubuntu install takes 20 mins, including download and burning the USB. Make it 30, maybe?
My only windows 11 install took 7 hours, multiple days, BIOS visits, searching for documentation and hair pulling, all with the same machine.
Yeah, there is a difference
Oh so you’re bad at using computers. Got it. I can have windows 11 without telemetry in 10 minutes and with a local user profile instead of a Microsoft account. This argument about what you were able to do and how long it took you doesn’t make you look cool or smart. It makes you look like you have no idea what you’re doing.
He may have been trying to install it on a potato or on something atypical. I struggled to get a clean Windows 10 install on a system with an old ASUS motherboard using its RAID controller and AHCI. Support didn’t seem to understand the problem, but they were a good sounding board while I figured it out over 3 evenings. By contrast, Windows 11 took all of 10 minutes to install with Rufus on a modern system. Sometimes you just end up with a system configuration that isn’t quite supported out of the box by a given OS, and it takes some third party drivers and some intermediary configurations to get things to load before you can get things working properly.
This actually happened to me before recently and all it took is one firmware setting. So frustrating.
Yeah I was writing software since before you were born.
I’ve written multiple times in excruciating detail what horrors it was to install windows 11, and how fucking easy it was with Linux. Not going to repeat that, check my post history. But to be clear, I know what I’m doing and any normal person ehmoyldnt even have been able to do this windows install.
It doesn’t make me look bad it makes Microsoft look like shit because that’s what it is
Cool story bro. You must be so good at computer yet you can’t install windows. Also very cool that you think you know how old I am or what my experience is. I can do either blindfolded and have been doing so for decades. It’s really not that impressive. This is low level IT shit. Let’s all stand and applaud this guy who can’t install windows. Lol
I believe your anecdote, but my Linux Mint install also took multiple days, BIOS visits, and lots of documentation searching. It’s a factor of how much the OS makers anticipated the specific hardware configuration and how out of date the partitions are configured.
My main point is that both can be frustrating, and there’s nothing consistent.
Pretty sure mine took 20 minutes to burn to USB. Maybe I need better jump drives.
How the fuck. I seriously want to know. My W11 IoT installed under half an hour.
Did you also get most of the extra software installed at the same time or did you need to spend extra time getting all your non-OS software installed to make your computer actually useful?
Windows itself was installed during that time. Additional software installation took a few minutes. I installed stuff when I needed it thorough the day.
So nothing to really make Windows actually useful on reboot. In nearly the same amount of time with a Linux distro, you get a system that may well not need anything extra to be productive with on 1rst reboot.
(And yes, I have installed both OS systems from scratch dating back to dos).
And how many hours more to get all the drivers working properly?
If it takes multiple hours to install Windows for you, better to stick to OSes you do know.
9 out of 10 times?
Nothing, it all works out the box
Just to add another anecdatum, I had the exact same experience installing Windows 11 this year. I have never had this much trouble installing an OS in the 20 years I’ve been screwing with computers.
Damn, which part did you get stuck?
The clicking “next” part?
The unplugging of internet to get a local account?
Or the running of a debloating script?
Wow, you’re a jerk.
Yep and somehow people who don’t know better are up voting him. Not surprising for this platform.
Yeah it’s not always that simple. You haven’t been around long enough to see the stuff that can go wrong with installing Windows. For example I recently had Windows refuse to see both SSDs in a machine. All because of something called Intel VMD. Took me a handful of attempts before I found the problem.
When Windows installs work they are fairly simple if long, but when they don’t work oh boy.
The unplugging of internet to get a local account?
Also they disabled that for Windows Home.
Some Lemmy users are actually just wankers. I would like it if you all stopped. It’s especially great when I have people like you who probably aren’t even experienced in tech.
They disabled the local account for offline devices on all versions including IOT. The solution is to hit shift + f10 for CMD and then running OOBE\BYPASSNRO which enables that feature. But 90% of people setting up windows for the first time just create an account or use one they already have. Not that it’s better to do it that way. Just that it isn’t that difficult.
This community (we’re not that other site) has just delved into “windows bad” to the point of nauseating.
Probably going to filter this now especially after that idiotic chart that showed windows 8 being better than 10 with Linux having absolutely no problems whatsoever
debian should be a bit higher on that list, but it’s still easier than installing windows.
Why? I use Mac mostly, but recently built a PC. I installed two Linux distros on it without even worrying about what drivers I needed, and I even have an NVidia GPU.
I also created a Windows partition and neither WiFi nor Bluetooth worked out of the box. Linux was objectively easier.
Man, I spent like six hours getting my network drivers sorted out on my last debian install, and I could never get them working on mint. Clearly, my experience shows that linux must be fucking impossible to install. /s
Yes, mint is a huge leap forward. No longer will my mother be calling me up at four in the morning in tears, asking why tar -xv isn’t working to extract her crochet pattern archive. Nor will I have to have friends drive over to my house with a USB drive so I can give them a properly formatted bootable, or have to help my nephew build out a custom ubuntu server image for the r810 he wants to runs his minecraft server on. Now, we have one powerful solution! Anyone can run it, it’s got a nice UI! There’s uniform tools to manage deployment and user accounts across your entire IT infrastructure! Plug it in and it just… Works…
Wait.
Wait shit that’s just windows.I use linux every day, and mint really truly is a very good choice of OS for the average consumer. But the reasons it is a good choice for the average consumer (ease of maintenance, ease of install, compatibility, community) are all the same reasons windows is a good choice for the average consumer (ignoring privacy and FOSS philosophy, because holy shit does the average consumer not give a shit). Windows can be a pain in the ass, yes. “DLL hell” is a term for a reason. But linux can be equally awful to deal with when it breaks, especially for an inexperienced or non-tech-savvy user.
This sub can get really up it’s own ass about how easy linux is to work with. And, from our perspective, sitting here with our Tux tramp stamps, having used linux for twenty years, it is that easy. But we forget that nothing about computing is intuitive to the average person. This kind of Linux Supremacy bullshit just further entrenches the idea that linux users are all sweaty basement nerds and turns the people that could actually benefit from ditching M$ Home for Mint away from all of us sweaty, arrogant losers.
What an absurdly sycophantic graph.
Install windows, run debloat powershell script. Done.
Microsoft give no shortage of things to complain about without needing to exaggerate.
Or just run Tiny11.
The first thing that has actually been useful here. Thanks!
What does debloating entail exactly?
Disabling unnecessary background services, disabling telemetry, removing preinstalled adware. Easy to do with WinUtil by Chris Titus Tech.
I can agree that installing Arch is easier than installing a debloated Windows. But Gentoo? I spent 2 weeks trying to install it, but couldn’t get past partitioning the drive.
…paritioning the drives is exactly the same for Arch as it is Gentoo lol if you did it for Arch, why can’t you do it for Gentoo?
I meant, I partitioned the drives, but could not complete the steps after that. I couldn’t use that tar file to compile the kernel.
Well, configuring the kernel is where things get tricky and is the major difference between the Gentoo and Arch installation, so that makes sense.
To be annoyingly pendantic, you did get past partitioning the drivea, then!
I’m genuinely curious as an Arch user. Does gentoo not come with fdisk?
As a Gentoo user who has used Arch in the past, I have no clue what problems this commenter could have run into because paritioning the drives is exactly the same for both distributions… if they were able to figure it out for Arch, then they can do it for Gentoo
Or you know, gparted, arch bootable, Windows Drive Management, Ubuntu…
I mean out of all the things I’d THINK you’d have trouble in, partitioning and formatting is…. not one of them.
Yes it does. And while time-consuming it’s actually not too bad if you just follow the guide and don’t just skim through it.
There are certain parts of the guide where i really wish it went into more detail.
Last time i installed Gentoo i had the Arch wiki open alongside the guide to help translate
Yeah to be fair it does make some assumptions about you knowing how to do something or know what you want.
The arch wiki is a good substitute, but the gentoo wiki when it was still around and at its peak was amazing.
But I agree… Gentoo is not quite keeping up with a lot of details. Like experimenting with refind, dracut, efistubs, I felt I was in the dark a lot of the time. I ended up making very few mistakes, because the distro is very good at working for special cases even if all the details are not explained. Still my favourite distro.
Oh, it does: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Disks
Look at that manual, isn’t it nice?
Ma-ma-manual?
I thought there were only automatics nowadays!
No wonder Linux is so hard
I mean, that you couldn’t get past drive partitioning doesn’t make it difficult to install for everyone.
But it does make it more difficult relative to the others, which is all that any unitless chart is ever saying.
Lol what? As the other comment says, partitioning disks for Gentoo is exactly the same thing as partitioning disks for Arch. If the problem is a PEBKAC thing you can’t just blame the distro.
The alleged “difficulty” of installing Gentoo is just about reading docs and waiting for it to compile stuff, it’s no rocket science as you people are trying to FUD.
Reread what I said.
A>B is a relative statement that gives no information on the absolute values of either. If I say that Miami’s elevation is greater than New Orleans’, that doesn’t mean that I’m saying Miami’s equal to the top of Mount Everest.
man fdisk
As much as I wish this were true, this is in a bubble where Windows isn’t already preinstalled on everything.
Unfortunatly, that’s the reality of how computers are sold. If customers could try out both windows and Ubuntu at the store before buying and then got the variant with that OS preinstalled, I bet more people might use Linux, especially if they saved money by not paying for a windows license.
It said “(Debloated)” you still have to debloat it even if it’s already installed and has enough storage for your liking.
If you actually read the whole graph, you’ll see windows has 2 entries.
My apologies, I didn’t see that 😅
Installing windows takes stupidly long. You have to click through 60 pages and click “No, i don’t want to share my data” just for them to collect it anyway
I’m pretty sure it’s less than 10, and I just recently set up a Windows machine.
Who installs an unmodified installer package? That’s just silly. Setup your installer using Rufus or something similar and this is not an issue.
Installing a debloated Windows takes 15 minutes if you know what you are doing.
The only thing you need to wait on is installing updates.
Installing gentooI love Debian, but it’s installer is shit.
It really is, I can use it, but it’s clunky compared to even Arch’s TUI. Gentoo is harder, but Gentoo isn’t trying to do what Debian is.
Another bad one is Fedora’s. I’m used to it, of course, but the placement of the buttons to exit screens is all over the fuck, and you better know what you’re doing in order to even set the hostname and make a user during install.
It’s one of the only installers that seems to take the longest compatatively and (afaik) doesn’t really let you leave it unaftended. Most other distros let you just set everything first then go, but Debian does that and then asks you what DE and other questions mid install…
I’ve probably used it more than a hundred times now, but I still get confused about the current step sometimes.
brother, 99% of users will never even consider installing their own os. the issue isn’t that Linux is hard to install, the issue is that pretty much anyone brave enough to even mess with their operating system is either already on Linux, a boomer, or trapped by professional software that isn’t available on Linux (that’s me, a videographer)
the only way Linux is breaking out of extreme obscurity is if it starts coming pre-installed on commercially available and desirable hardware. the steam deck did more for Linux in a single product launch than the entire decade of combined efforts before that. before the deck i would have said it was simply never going to happen, but who knows. maybe it’ll be up to eccentric billionaires that never went public with their companies to push the Linux future we all want.
