What I find depressing is that most of the Arab world thinks so, but the majority of people from Gaza don’t.
Arab world: https://i.imgflip.com/41f829.jpg
It clearly shows that Arabs don’t care about fellow Palestinians suffering, and the only thing that matters is that they fucked up lives of some Jews.
Arabs aren’t one people. They’re many different tribes. They’ve been fighting as long as the historical record. So them not caring about the Palestinians is not surprising but obvious.
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the majority of people from Gaza don’t.
Last poll I saw shows the majority of Gazans approve of Oct 7:
57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514Has public opinion in Gaza shifted since then?
Yeah I’m curious how much help all these Arab countries were sending to the Palestinians.
I thought Arab countries were the only ones sending aid to Palestinians - ignoring the US which of course is playing both sides
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All arabs remember Jordan September 1970 so nobody trusts the Palestinians one bit and rather prefer they die against the Israeli than their own citizens. They got expelled to Lebanon after Jordan and sparked civil war there for decades and then finally getting expelled in 1991.
So if you wonder why the neighbouring Arab countries don’t care. There’s your answer.
Nobody hates Palestinians more than other Arabs. This was never about them, it was always about hate for Israel.
I dunno, maybe the people genociding them hate them more.
No, arabs bad.
Usually, yeah.
What a clown!
We see through your tribal bullshit. Y’all hate each other more than my aunts, but you hate Jews more. When people like you say Israelis need to leave the middle east, we know which Israelis you mean. Certainly not the Arabs living in Israel.
Stop spreading misinformation.
Recall that it was the US who had to twist Egypt’s arm into accepting refugees. Black September was a thing, and it resulted in several Arab countries refusing to take Palestinian refugees.
It’s important that we discuss this. Hamas and other extremist groups take advantage of the kindness that is offered to Palestinians, and they cause civil wars and assassinations. If I remember right, they murdered the king of Jordan.
The Muslim extremists are a problem for everyone, and they make life much harder for Palestinians.
Does that mean they hate Palestinians, or just refugees in general?
It seems like the cultures of, checks notes, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar are not built around helping those less-fortunate.
Charity is one of the main pillars of Islam. Saudi Arabia even has (had?) what was basically a Universal Basic Income for its citizens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_Account_Program_(Saudi_Arabia)
I’m not agreeing with any overarching point, I’m just not sure they’re as bad as you think with regards to helping their own countrymen. Though maybe that generosity begins and ends with its citizens.
What percentage of people living in Saudi Arabia are allowed to be citizens?
~55% I think.
The rest might as well be dirt.
K
Mass slavery doesn’t sound very charitable.
No idea about the other two but I’m pretty sure this doesn’t apply to Egypt.
Handy for Israel to get to exterminate them within their own borders and everyone else is to blame because they won’t take them as refugees. Both those things are bad, but one is at least a bit worse.
Oh don’t get me wrong, the blame is backwards. It lies primarily with Israel for killing them. It’s fucked up, albeit less so, for these other countries to refuse to take in the refugees.
Handy for Israel to get to exterminate them within their own borders and everyone else is to blame because they won’t take them as refugees.
I don’t think they said or even implied that
It’s important that we discuss this. Hamas and other extremist groups take advantage of the kindness that is offered to Palestinians, and they cause civil wars and assassinations. If I remember right, they murdered the king of Jordan.
Yeah I won’t deny that these things are all pretty messed up, but the claim that Arabs hate Palestinians is just wrong, at least from what I’ve seen as an Egyptian. Also I don’t see how Hamas, which was founded in the mid-80s in a completely different political climate, has anything to do with this. The PLO, which isn’t even Islamist, is the one who did these things.
Generalities are rarely true, I should’ve specified. I agree that the statement “Arabs hate Palestinians” is more wrong than it is right. And there are certainly differences between the PLO and Hamas and other militant groups.
It would be more correct to say that violent militants are using the Palestinians’ plight to take advantage of the kindness of Arab neighbors and then try to take over their societies. And naturally, that has made neighboring countries reticent to take in refugees.
What is wrong however is seeing a terrorist attack against Israeli civilians as legitimate resistance when they themselves will not take in Palestinian refugees.
What is wrong however is seeing a terrorist attack against Israeli civilians as legitimate resistance when they themselves will not take in Palestinian refugees.
Unfortunately many Arab people do consider all Jewish Israeli civilians as active participants in Israel’s crimes, but that’s a whole different story. The serious argument that October 7th was legitimate resistance relies on the fact that it was against military targets, with no evidence the leadership ordered anything close to slaughter of civilians. Add in that even after the IDF shelled and shot their own citizens the civilian casualty rate was 66% and the idea that Hamas just passed the border and randomly murdered civilians falls apart pretty quickly. Of course not denying the atrocities that actually happened, but October 7th as a whole was legitimate resistance with an army that’s prone to committing war crimes, not a terror attack with the goal of murdering civilians. This distinction is important because “atrocities were committed on October 7th” and “October 7th was a terror attack” aren’t equivalent statements.
I might not be up to date on the latest understanding of the days events. Do you know a good source where I could go read up on it?
There’s no one source that’ll cover everything, but since most of us have a general idea of what Hamas did (and that’s mostly what you’ll get if you look up October 7th) here’s a few examples/evidence of the IDF killing their citizens on October 7th.
https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/759856/Israel-s-IDF-ordered-to-prevent-Hamas-from-returning-to-Gaza
(contains the Hebrew article and a translation in the comments).
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It’s unfortunate that we can’t just lock up all the extremists into one room and let them solve the problem for us.
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Bingo
The blood feud just makes me feel… tired. And sad for the whole region.
I’m really exhausted from all the crises happening across the planet on a daily basis. Its become as average as Tuesday. It’s desensitizing.
I would love to duck my head in the sand, but that won’t make things any better.
There should be like an Underground Railroad for those who want to leave.
Considering how the Arab world at large never agreed with the terms of Israel’s conquest, this makes sense.
In the 40s and 50s they all agreed on kicking those same Jews out of their counties, though.
And attacking Israel at the same time but still all losing so bad that Israel actually gained land.
It does seem like some anime shit
The Israelis themselves know it but deny it. I am confident that one day sooner or later, Palestine will be liberated like Ireland, Algeria and South Africa before it.
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” — David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
Pretty sure jews around the world never agree with the war that was brought to them the moment country was formed.
On Palestine. Their country was formed through massacres and ethnic cleansing.
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Most of them.
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We are specifically talking about settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing. Something most countries in the world haven’t been founded on. Take Egypt or Libya for example.
So was the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand.
They’re not going anywhere, and the people who call for the abolition of those countries are nutcases and will always be accurately understood as nutcases.
Pakistan and India were formed just like Israel was: according to international law and by partition.
If the Palestinians want a state, they can have one: alongside Israel. Those are the terms. And until they accept that, they will suffer. Sucks for them.
What? So we’re supposed to live by the same standards we had before globalization?
So, as a human society we have not evolved to recognize that what happened in the US was wrong and that it happening again is not acceptable?
Hm.
Pakistan and India wasn’t the same. it was single nation split in two. the people in it is native. Israel is nonexistent before 1948 and the people were brought from outside. as south African kick out theirs oppressors, Palestinian will do the same. israel is no different than nazi, instead israel are worst.
the people in it is native.
Some were, some weren’t. Depends how far back you want to go, which wave of mass migration you’re talking about.
Israel is nonexistent before 1948 and the people were brought from outside
Except, of course, that none of this is correct.
First, there’s the ancient Kingdom of Judah. The Jews are the same people.
Second, Jews maintained a continuous presence in the land of Israel-Palestine ever since then. They are, therefore, indigenous to the land.
Third, the majority of Jewish Israelis are Mizrahis – Jews from Arab lands who’ve lived there since the Second Temple Period (516 BC - 70 AD), who were forced to flee from these neighbouring Muslim states due to violence, pogroms, repression and the theft of their property.
We know from numerous scientific studies of Jewish and Palestinian DNA that they’re almost identical, and share a common root, most likely both being descendents of the ancient Canaanites. Here’s a very recent one. There’s almost no genetic difference with ‘European’ Ashkenazi Jews either, because they very rarely intermarried with other faith/ethnic groups. Here’s another from 2015 in Haaretz.
Palestinians and Jews are basically cousins, genetically speaking, and both are indigenous to the land. Palestinians perceive it as an invasion, and that’s understandable despite not being true. To the Jews, they were returning from exile to their homeland only to find that there were squatters who’d let the place fall to ruin while they were gone, which is also understandable though not true.
They’ll find a way to live together one day, but it’ll require both sides to accept the rights of the other.
Judaism is a religion and FYI all Middle Eastern people cluster close genetically. In fact South Arabians cluster closer to ancient Levantines than Zionist settlers. Should you instead give the land to them?
We already know Ashkenazi are European https://www.livescience.com/40247-ashkenazi-jews-have-european-genes.html
And are highly susceptible to skin cancer unlike the Palestinians.
Remarkably, although Israeli Arabs, especially men, tend to work more outdoors, melanoma in this sector is rare compared to that of Jewish Israelis.
https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/article-706842
As for Mizrahis they are from wherever they came from. Yemeni Jews aren’t Palestinians anymore than Yemeni Muslims are Palestinian. Not at all.
If Jews had a continuous presence then why did Zionist leaders refer to themselves and their project as colonialism? https://en.jabotinsky.org/media/9747/the-iron-wall.pdf
You should read the Iron Wall Essay. In it Jabotinsky clearly states that Zionism is colonialism and accurately predicts that the Palestinians will resist since “all natives resist colonialists”.
If Jews had a continuous presence how did they come by the hundreds of thousands on ships? There were Palestinian Jews who are indigenous but Judaism is a religion, Jews from France or Morocco are not indigenous.
If you want to argue that people that haven’t been in Palestine before Zionism are indigenous then you still need to explain how that gives them the right to expel people already there from their lands.
I have been arguing with Zionists for years, and other than myths and lies to justify their colonialism of Palestine, the only solid argument they ever gave is “might makes right”. I can see Zionists believe in it, Jabotinsky and the Likud clearly do. At which I say it took 132 years to liberate Algeria, it took 7 centuries to liberate Ireland. No one is mighty forever.
it took 7 centuries to liberate Ireland. No one is mighty forever.
When do you think Canada will be liberated and the indigenous return to power?
How the fuck did you even interview them? The governments of many Arab countries in this survey would kidnap and jail you indefinitely without trail if you support Palestine in public or on social media, and many other cave in to what they are expected to say. It’s garbage in garbage out
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A new opinion poll, carried out by the Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies, was published on January 10
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The 8000 respondents, from 16 different countries,
8000 respondents, given that they’re a fair sample size from each arab-majority country (which I doubt) do not represent what 464 million arabs think.
That’s 0.0001724138% of the population.
your comment shows us you don’t know how polls are made
why not look it up first and only then comment (if relevant)
Polls…how do they work?
Maybe include that it is a poll of “~5700 arabs by Qatari institutions” in the title, not “67% of arabs”.
Misleading title. Sorry to see individuals like you on Lemmy rather than Reddit.
You definitely haven’t taken stats.
Whilst it’s quite amazing just how few people you need in your sample to get a +/- 3% error with a 95% confidence for the opinion of hundreds of millions, that narrow error margin with just a few thousand samples only works if the sample is representative of the population in general, which is unclear.
Plenty of cases of polls out there that are complete total bollocks because they were taken by calling by phone people in relativelly poor countries were only those in the middle class and above have a phone, and at times when most people were out working, so they ended up sampling an atypical subset of people rather than one representative of the whole society.
The way the question is posed also influences the results, sometimes quite subtly (the mere order or words or order of questions in multiple-question poll can sway the results).
So whilst what you said makes sense in response to the previous commenter’s point, there’s a lot more to good polling than merelly the number of samples necessary for a certain error margin in the 95% confidence interval when your sampling is random in a uniform distribution (emphasys on the later, as actually making sure the sampling is indeed like that in practice is often difficult and/or costly)
Just like the polls done by those who “know stats” who predicted a clinton win in 2016.
How is the really of an opinion poll painting them as a monolith? It’s literally saying they have different opinions.
This doesn’t seem any different from polling Western countries and writing a title about what the Western world thinks. Doesn’t make me think of a monolith.
In that case, I’m sure you’d have an issue with a publication writing “99% of Europeans think Hitler was bad”, despite it being a bunch of different nations.
Or, is it “eh white is white” for you?
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I’m surprised it is this low.
Edit: the comments are hell. But what else to except from propagandized westerners that never cared to know from Arabs.
I wish our leaders had a sense of shame or honour, instead many of them are collaborators.
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
Not to be pedantic but I’d to clarify one aspect that not many people know.
He was right, except for one. At least from the perspective of those Muslim Arab leaders:
Our God is not theirs.
Islam is an Abrahamic religion, regarded by the Muslim as a continuation of the Abrahamic religions before it. So the muslim regard themselves as having the same god as the Jews and the Christians. Thus, the prophets of the Jewish religion (and even the prophets of the Christianity, Jesus) are also regarded as prophets in Islam. Many of them are mentioned in Quran in good faith. The main difference is the jewish doesn’t recognize Muhammad as their prophet while the Muslim regards Muhammad as the last prophet in addition to those before him.
Why on earth do we accept J Post articles here? It’s literally Israeli propaganda.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/arab-center-research-policy-studies-174700630.html
Happy? Or do you have a narrative to spin about this one, too?
I’ll remember that next time I see an al Jazeera post
Im not sure I mentioned al Jazeera at all. Random that you brought it up
Their point is that those claims are made in both directions.
I suspect their point was baseless whataboutism pointed at something I never said or implied to try and (in their minds) undermine my point.
If you want to ban one news outlet that you are imagining is state propaganda, why not ban the other state propaganda with a clear biased agenda?
Where did I say I did or did not want to ban Al Jazerra?
I didnt mention it at all.
Thats why its so bad faith.
You’re right, you’re certainly arguing in bad faith. It’s okay, the rest of us understand where you stand, and why your propaganda isn’t any better than the Qatari ran lies.
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To me, the crazy thing is that 33% of the Arab world doesn’t think it was legitimate resistance.
The October 7th attack was clearly terrorism. But to have such a big percentage of the Arab world seem to agree with that, even in such an insanely one-sided situation as the ongoing occupation of Gaza, means:
A lot of people want peace.
Everyone wants peace for themselves and their allies. What’s important is how many people want peace for the other guy too.
Well, but what I’m saying is that (edit:
calling it terrorism) saying it wasn’t legitimate is kind of wanting peace for the other guy too.I’d be surprised if 33% of Americans or Israelis thought that the invasion of Gaza was illegitimate. Maybe they would though, I honestly don’t know.
It’s all terrorism, all the way down. Israel throws a volley, then Hamas throws a volley, and so on. It’s depressing.
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You shouldn’t take the actions of genocidal, colonizing settlers and generalize them to all Israelis. It’s completely incorrect to suggest that all Israelis want to exterminate the Palestinians. As small as they are, there are left wing groups that want to find reconciliation and cooperation. And plenty of youth have refused their compulsory service with the IDF.
It also makes no sense for the Israelis to think they’re superior to the Palestinians – only half of Israelis trace their ancestry from European Jews. The other half have the same ancestry as the Palestinians. They’re all semites.
You’re far too eager to condemn people by association, who may very well have the same beliefs as you. These are the same logical fallacies that lead to ubermensch beliefs in the first place.
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I’m not disputing any of that. I’m just saying we shouldn’t tar Levy and the others with the same brush. And like you said, the people being killed by Hamas are not just the genocide supporters.
Think about how this conflict is going to end. When we look at the most likely outcomes:
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Status quo continues, and just kicks the can back down the road until one of the other outcomes
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Israeli completely genocides Palestinians and colonizes Gaza and West Bank on their bodies. Some survive as refugees, but most of them die. Hamas is mostly destroyed, but its rich leaders in the UAE and similar countries drink champagne and live it up just fine.
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Enough Israelis vote for a left wing regime that seeks reconciliation, and recognizes they have to move past the history of violence for it to end.
Odds are, Israel is not going to be destroyed or ended. The best chance of peace relies on the Israelis who understand the power dynamic places the impetus on them to stop the violence. To that end, it’s unhelpful to blanket label all Israelis as genocide supporters. Because if that’s true, Palestine has no hope.
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Do you believe it is realistic to achieve a situation like Nazi Germany, where several countries take control of the government and administer the area for a few decades? Without any subjugation, and with economic aid from the administering countries?
If you have a way to do that, I am genuinely interested in hearing it. As long as it seems unviable however, regime change is the best option. Netanyahu’s government failed to protect people from Hamas attack, kidnappings, and their own army killed Israelis. If there was ever a time to foment a change, it’s now.
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Most Israelis agree with their governments crimes. Most Israelis are racist and supremacists. I recommend you listen to Gideon Levy here https://youtu.be/3EtNFXL_ykg
Even if so though, this just perpetuates the problem. This is why the conflict won’t stop.
Most of Group A thinks that most of Group B are supremacists, and condones the killing of B. The members of B who aren’t supremacists and are killed anyway by association see all of Group A as supremacists who want them dead, so they condone the killing of A, even those that disagree and don’t think that all of B are supremacists.
This isn’t going to stop until people see each other as individuals. They’ll create justifications to kill each other until one of them ceases to exist. It falls on Israel to seek reconciliation, or this violence is just going to keep going.
There were multiple peace offers by the Arabs, such as the Arab Peace Initiative 22 years ago. Israel has always rejected a two-state solution.
Do you think the Irish should have given up on fighting for freedom?
Just to be clear, we both agree that Israel is the one causing the problem here, and the one that holds all the cards.
And unless I’m mistaken, that peace initiative did have a prominent Israeli figure there supporting a two state solution, right? I thought this was when Netanyahu boosted Hamas initially to kill the two state talks and literally kill that Israeli negotiator.
My point is that we need Israelis like them. There can be no peaceful resolution unless Israelis want peace – or, at least, want the fighting to stop. That’s what happened with the Irish, isn’t it? They didn’t physically defeat the UK army.
Do you see what I’m saying? Even if most Israelis are supremacists, our enemy is not all Israelis. If we blindly kill people based on their countrymen the only solution left is total annihilation.
I think it is interesting how many people think there will ever be peace while Hamas is in charge, or that Hamas will ever let someone else be in charge.
Nobody in power ever “lets” someone else have it instead.
On the first part, I agree; both Likud and Hamas are hell-bent on this outcome. If only the one of them would stop giving the other money to keep them both going.
Nobody in power ever “lets” someone else have it instead.
Peaceful transition of power is a cornerstone of democracies
I actually hesitated to write what I wrote for that exact reason… but I decided that there’s enough implied threat of everyone else just removing you anyway and you looking stupid and maybe going to prison that you can’t actually call it “voluntary.” Trump tried his absolute very best to simply refuse to go along with the peaceful transition of power and he still got power-transitioned out.
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you; I do think a lot of the theater of concession speeches and other trappings that go with peaceful transitions in countries far from Palestine is super important. But I think Trump actually did a pretty good job (so far, fingers crossed) at illustrating that it’s not really voluntary for the departing president to agree to leave.
Yes tell us what we want. تهريج 🤡
No doubt about that. minus some bad details .
When you’re defending beheading children as “legitimate resistance” when you should probably take a step back and take a long hard look at yourself.
And no, before idiots come along and say dumb shit… That doesn’t mean I’m defending Israel’s actions either. It’s possible to dislike both situations.
There’s no evidence Hamas beheaded children. IIRC that was a rumor originating from the IDF which remains unsubstantiated.
If they had any proof of “Beheading children” they would have submitted to the International Court of Justice. but they didn’t, they haven’t even dared use that sentence. but here your are parroting your Zionist Hasbara Lies and defending a genocidal agenda that have been in the working for over a century
Oh look, the idiots saying dumb shit have turned up …
I know right, the rest of us would rather you guys go home.
Show me 40 decapitated babies and I will start believing the IDF
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resistance? Its intention was to open the doors for Israel and so it did.
What do you mean? The fascist islamist terrorists of Hamas wanted Israel to retaliate? For what reason? I think you give them too much credit, they just took an opportunity to kill as many as they could.
Whoever agree with the “legitimate resistance” legitimates everything in this website:
NSFW WARNING: The website contains violent content. Viewer discretion is advised.
I don’t think you want to play the game of who can show who did worse things.
It is Israel, 100%.
Israel has killed 20 times that number and leveled whole families and neighborhoods slaughtering tons of innocent children.
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You know polls are utterly unscientific tea-leaf reading right?
57% sounds empirical and they even have cool little charts to go with it. Best case scenario it was: you got someone who doesn’t want to talk to you to talk to you for five minutes, or you set the stage for a talkative bastard to talkative bastard at you until you can break free. Neither are particularly good windows into their actual thoughts about Thing X but furthermore all the responses usually total like 0.000028% of the population.
You know polls are utterly unscientific tea-leaf reading right?
Lmao
Maths is unscientific now
E: To any downvoters: you are stupid.
Polling is just maths, and is very reliable so long as it’s done reasonably.
By all means have reservations of this poll specifically, but to call polls in general or as a concept “unscientific tea leaf reading” is foolish. Disagreeing with that mathematical fact is exactly the same as disagreeing that 5 + 5 = 10.
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Polling is mathematical…
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When did I mention faked polls? You’re just making up shit now.
You’re either a troll or stupid if you don’t think polling is mathematics.
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Good strawman. I never said that polls can’t have a selection bias.
I said thinking polls in general or polls as a concept are tea leaf reading is stupid. Because it is. If you believe that, you’re a moron. You may as well say you disagree with the concept that 5 + 5 is 10.
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