I posted this question on Reddit a while ago and it was an interesting discussion so I wanted to hear what Lemmings think.
It’s common for religious people to be against the above mentioned things due to their beliefs, but how common is it for atheists to be against them? What reasons would they have? How would they base their opinion if there was no belief system/religion to rely on?
I’m not trying to provoke or insult anybody with this question, and I don’t wish for people to hate on each other’s beliefs. I just think this is an interesting concept to think about.
I don’t know how common, but I remember enough of middle school to know that just because you’re a budding atheist does not prelude deep homophobia.
Or racism.
The American scientific community was all in on eugenics prior to WWII. We were sterilizing people left and right for mental illness, being a minority with “too many kids,” etc.
STIM doesn’t include ethics, psychology, and sociology. It’s amazing how many book-smart people are terrible humans.
The thing is, teenagers (usually) are a reflection of what they are taught in their houses. They are not mature enough to have their own opinions.
Better question is, how common is for adult atheists to be against homosexuality/abortion?
“Teenage pseudo-intellectual edgelords” is a demographic targeteted for recruitment by the far-right and its a scene that was filled with them decades ago.
So now they’re not racists and sexists, they’re “race realists” and armchair biologists. All it took was a crooked scan of a figure in a published paper.
But there’s no critical thought behind it at all. Give them a list of IQ grouped by race and they’ll declare there are no contributing systemic problems or historical events, black people are just genetically inferior.
There are so many obvious threads they could follow.
Scientific ones like “Is IQ actually objective or can you easily be primed and trained for the test?”.
Moral ones like “Should people’s rights and freedoms be decided by their intelligence and if so, why is that being extrapolated from the color of their skin rather than giving IQ tests to white supremacists?”.
Innate ones that don’t require any further context like “If white people aren’t at the top of that list anyway, why is the ‘okay to abuse’ cut off at second place?”
Ultimately, they’re no different from the religious extremists. They’re bigots and they’ve worked backwards from that to find an excuse.
I’ve met weird people who argue that homosexuality is unnatural because it doesn’t reproduce (and apparently that is the reason for existence) and thus wrong.
Same people ignore homosexuality in nature, that other animals in nature have members that contribute to their society without mating, and that no one cares what they think.
But I have met them.
It’s not really that surprising. I’m straight, and thinking about sex with someone of my own gender, does repulse me. But it’s not really a different revulsion to thinking about sex with someone of the opposite gender, who I’m not into.
I can totally imagine less self aware individuals observing their own feelings, and failing to account for the fact that the feelings of others may differ, and that that is fine, and doesn’t need to affect them. Even if they are otherwise secular.
I’ve definitely met homophobic people, who literally go out of their way to feel queasy about it, when seeing it in public or the media. Mistaking their feelings for something more universal, than just their own personal sexual orientation.
My dad is an atheist and whilst he would never openly tell you he’s against homosexuality. He is a homophobe in almost every sense of the word, he’s had conversations with friends at the pub about how worried he was that I was gay (I’m not, I’m just not a rugby player drinking 10 pints every evening). He’s not against abortion as far as I’m aware, though I would imagine he’s in favour if only because it protects men against unwanted children.
My brother “came out” to him to see what his reaction would be and he essentially disowned him there and then. Neither me or my brother talk to him much anymore, he’s very right wing and refuses to admit it. Failed upwards for most of his life and is quite bitter about anything existing which he isn’t 100% on board with. I think his parents were somewhat religious but not aggressively so, he went to boarding school which could have something to do with it but I don’t know any details about why he feels the way he does. If I asked him he’d just deny it despite all the evidence anyway, I think in his mind that as long as you SAY you’re OK with it you can’t be homophobic by definition
I remember him advocating strongly for every drug dealer in existence being executed, no exceptions. I then pointed out that I would be executed in that scenario because I was suspended from school for giving someone some hash and he didn’t really know what to do with himself. Everything is jet black or bright white to him, there is very little room for any shades of grey.
Not sure about the US, but a lot of former soviet countries are virulently homophobic, despite high levels of atheism.
China and Japan are also quite homophobic too, despite something like 80% of the population being atheist.
Closer to home, the UK has far more atheists (google suggests almost twice as many) than the US, but is also TERF central with plenty of homophobia and transphobia.
My elderly father would probably catch on fire if he steps into a church. But he shares basically all social values with hardcore Christians.
You can be a non believer, that was raised in a certain belief system and as such share their shitty values. I would imagine this is much more common with older atheists/agnostics/don’t-care-about-religion,-only-myselfionists
Yeah I think a good example is Jordan Peterson - AFAIK he’s an athiest. And he’s a hard-core conservative. What i found interesting is I remember his debate with Zizek and he was visibly shaken / nearly brought to tears when Zizek did his bit about Christianity being the most atheistic religion.
Where Christ says on the cross “Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani?” -> “father why have you forsaken me”
God himself in human form came down to Earth and in his moment of torment lost faith. Zizek argues this is quite a radical thing and this is why Christianity is the most atheist religion. I think it is a bit profound although you never know with Zizek. He says a lot of cool sounding stuff but sometimes mainly to shock.
I wonder what is the excuse of non religious people that are against homosexuality.
At least religious people have the excuse that a mighty superman god person said that homosexuality was wrong.
Do non religious people just hate homosexuality for the sake of hating it?
I’m fairly certain he’s against it due to his upbringing and never bothering to question his “beliefs” on the topic.
“Homosexuality is weird and wrong” (and it makes me doubt my own sexuality and masculinity) is probably the only driver behind it.
There’s a fairly easy argument to be made that since gay people can’t reproduce, it’s not natural.
This is not my pov, but it’s an easy argument.
What about infertile heterosexual men and women? Are they also unnatural?
(Asking in general, not you OP)
Not their choice, but “Homosexuality is a choice”.
To use a really dumb argument I’ve heard before.
lifelong atheist here and I was always taught to live and let live so do whatever the fuck you want it’s your life
In my experience it’s less common but not crazy rare. Atheism often comes with experience challenging society’s expectations and that means you’re usually more open minded. But these opinions aren’t inherently tied to religion. I’ve met people who argue their pro choice stance from a Christian perspective (life begins at first breath is in the Bible) and I’ve seen atheists claim that distinct genetics mean that fetuses are equally alive. Homosexuality is less easy for side switching as it’s not explicitly permitted in the Christian Bible, and opposition to it on science grounds are harder but it tends to come down to unexamined discomfort and the reasoning comes later. For atheists it will be related to the biological imperative to reproduce or eugenics and social contagion rhetoric.
Also there’s the new atheists who are basically all Alt right bigots
Most of the alt right bigots I’ve seen or heard of are religious too. I’m sure there are some that aren’t tho just doesn’t seem to be common
Well yeah, but one pathway that eventually fed into the formation of the alt right we know and hate is new atheism -> gamergate/anti SJW -> alt right. It wasn’t the main contributor to any of these things, but it is there. And like I wouldn’t be shocked if some of these people wound up Christians at some point during that process.
I have heard that a lot but not seen it, but I don’t surround myself with those kind of people much.
I did New Atheism (never was really religious but Texan so… religion is everywhere in your face) > Secular Humanist while also being anti SJW because of how cringe/bad they make the left look > Gamergate… eh idk it seemed somewhat fair at first being a look at potential corruption in the game review sphere but spun out I definitely agree, though it’s hard to not feel it was co-opted or somewhat intentionally lead down a worse path for some reason.
Idk it seems like that’s definitely the narrative I’ve heard parroted online and on news articles but, I personally went down a similar path and am basically an atheist/agnostic secular Humanist and social democracy or straight socialist advocate 🤷♂️
The alt right existed prior to most of that, like the tea party in 2009
Neither impacts me in any appreciable manner so I don’t think much about it.
I think a better question would be:
How common is it for secular humanists to take a stance against access to abortion (and/or) equal rights under the law for people who identify as something other than heterosexual?
I think the atheist part of the question is a bit strange since it really only informs us about whether or not a person has a belief in a god or deity, where as secular humanism tells us a bit more (in theory) about the social ideology of an individual.
I personally hate equivocating atheism with anything else other than the god/supernatural/intelligent design question because it can further justify the slippery slope of lumping other topics in with atheism as though it is a prescriptive ideology like religion tends to be. However, I understand what you are going for by asking this question, and I don’t want to be overly pedantic.
To answer your question:
I think, as another poster already said, it probably matters if we are talking about people who self-identify as atheists vs. people who don’t believe in god/gods but don’t spend a lot of time thinking about their beliefs.
Generally I would venture to guess that in the first group there is a large majority who also self-identify as secular humanists, and probably take a more progressive stance on access to abortion as well as equal rights for all people regardless of sexuality/gender identity. I’m not sure I have ever met a self-identified secular humanist who took an oppositional position on either issue.
As far as people who do not self-identify as secular humanist, I would say it probably mirrors the support for the issues in a relatively similar way as the general population in their geographical area.
Secular Humanism ftw
I just want to say, I really like your comment - it felt the most right to me. You take in a lot of considerations and all that. I like that.
Thanks, I appreciate that mate. I’ve watched a lot of Atheist Experience, Aron Ra, and other YouTube commentators over the years. With that I learned the importance of specificity and explanation of terms when forming a response or argument.
That’s what I personally respect and enjoy so I try to make that a part of my discourse whenever I can. It isn’t for everyone, and I have gotten called out for being overly verbose more times than I care to admit 😅
Not every atheist is a humanist or even pro science, so they definitely exist. For example some regions in East Germany have a high Atheist rate and a very right wing population.
What do you. Mean by “being against homosexuality?” This can mean:
Finding it distasteful.
Thinking it isn’t real or healthy.
Speaking out against it, trying to shame or stigmatize it.
Promoting its criminalization.
I don’t really care if people want to do 1 and 2 as long as they keep it in their heads.
I’ve met people like that, I think those against abortion are more common and their reasoning is that the child is alive from conception or the moment its heart starts beating, and it deserves human rights from that moment. This idea is independent from any belief in god.
Same goes for homosexuality, personally I think it’s because some men (I’ve never met a non religious homophobic woman) find their own sense of masculinity or sexual identity challenged. I’ve never met a young person like this, all the examples I can think are from people who should be at least 50 yrs old today.
And honestly? I think it’s more of a cultural thing. I think I’ve met these types of people just as much as I’ve met backwardly religious types. In some countries you have a lot of religious thinking but not in others.
I suspect it’s far less common, but I don’t have any numbers.
It depends in large part how you define “atheist”- does this include people with religious or spiritual beliefs, but don’t believe in a diety?
Or does it exclude the supernatural altogether?
Regardless, personally… I don’t care. Like, yes, absolutely equal rights to love who you want. Absolutely should be codified into law. Don’t get me wrong… everyone should have that right… and equal access to healthcare, and the rights to decide what happens to and in one’s body.
But personally… I don’t care. I don’t care if you specifically are gay, or if you’ve had six abortions in the last year. It just doesn’t matter- and it really, really Shouldn’t matter at all.
That people are trying to make it matter… trying to discriminate and make it illegal? Yes. That matters. That’s wrong and evil. Their hatred is something that we need to stand against.
I’ve only met one who was somewhat like that: my roommate in freshman year at college, he was surprisingly conservative for a US atheist and thinks abortion should only be legal if the pregnancy is life-threatening or the product of rape/incest. And it wasn’t just that issue, he had these really weird and often messed-up takes on a lot of things to the point that one can’t completely dismiss the possibility that he might just be fucking with people by exaggerating how conservative he actually is.
Though to be fair he didn’t seem to have anything against at least the L, G and B (heck, for a good 8 months he dated a girl who openly admitted to being bi on like day one of their relationship and their breakup had nothing to do with it) but that’s a very low bar these days, now homophobia in America is creeping towards extinction and, now down to 25% of the electorate (whereas a good 55% are unfortunately still transphobic), is little more than a middle-school phase except in a few really specific areas like Florida.
Are you talking about an atheist who thinks the government should stop gay people? Or an atheist who is personally homophobic or ambivalent?
I’m sure they exist to some point. To what degree do we mean atheist? Someone who self labels? Probably less so, as someone who self labels as an atheist is probably more in tune with prevailing ideas about church/state.
I’m sure things were different in the 80s and before versus now.
