“What’s happening in Gaza is not genocide. We reject that,” Biden said at a Jewish American Heritage Month event at the White House.
I can’t tell if he’s pandering or trying to lose the election
Biden stressed his belief that Israel was the victim dating back to the Oct. 7 attack
Yes, we are not disputing that. Israel definitely was the victim at the time. But that doesn’t mean they’re allowed to kill so many innocent people that we now have lost the count
I got cut off by a minivan one time so I guess Biden is saying I have carde blanc to run every minivan I see off the road.
carte blanche*
Bone Apple Tea.
Parley View Fwansay?
Yeah, that’s the French I was looking for!
If you need a mnemonic, Cate Blanchett might work
I don’t think I could afford keeping her around just to remind me though.
I mean, we had a phenomenal ratio for 9/11 and Iraqi Freedom & Afghanistan.
It’s an urban war.
If you know of one which was carried out with no civilian deaths I’d like to know.
Israel has never been a victim. And occupier much like a colonist cannot be a victim. It isn’t self defense when people fight back against their occupier. Rather it is the occupier continuing to oppress. We should however bring justice to those innocent civilians who were killed.
Original article: https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-whats-happening-gaza-is-not-genocide-2024-05-20/
It’s pretty clear to me Biden’s trying to thread the needle on this in a gruesome way. The argument seems to follow the form of: civilian deaths are collateral damage, this is unfortunate but this is war and they are not purposely being targeted and so this is not genocide.
However that almost willfully ignores the denial and blocking of aid to the same affected civilians, which is a deliberate action that despite the cover story being to prevent it reaching Hamas, falls entirely flat as regardless, it results in direct suffering and death of the civilians. I say almost because some small efforts have been made to push back against the denial of aid, but as is evident to anyone monitoring the situation, these efforts are all far too small to address the widespread suffering and death of the Gazan people.
This whole semantics game around genocide is simply disgusting. You know those in government know exactly what people mean when they’re calling it that, they want an end to the killing and an end to the deaths of civilians, whether from military strikes or denial of aid.
Genocide shouldn’t be a “we don’t actually mean literal genocide but you know what we mean” type of thing.
What is with the desire to dilute words? If you mean something else, use a different fucking word.
It’s like he can’t even do the bare minimum of keeping his mouth shut.
Him or Trump. Both of them would probably be more popular if they just shut the fuck up once in a while.
One day I want to see someone get elected based simply on the fact that they just don’t say anything. Like, Mr. Bean their way to the presidency.
That would be Calvin Coolidge, aka “Silent Cal.” Supposedly, he was once bet that he could be made to say three words, and he replied, “you lose.”
That said, he’s not an especially highly-rated president.
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Explain then what killing people by coordinated starving, displacement, and exposing to unhealthy and life-threatening situations by the IDF is in your opinion.
The IDF said stop resisting. All they had to do was behave and comply and none of this would have happened. It was self defense. Israel felt threatened. Well, what were they wearing? Am I doing it right?
Don’t forget: The perps had traces of drugs in their systems.
-1 points
I’m shocked that this needs a /s, wow
Those are just premeditated accidental killings. It’s very different.
Its not genocide because its not from the Atroci region of sub saharan Africa or the Geno region of Central and Eastern Europe.
It’s actually sparkling murder induced relocation of an indigenous people, based solely on their ethnic identity, specifically to bring about the destruction of said ethnic group.
I hope that clears everything up.
Yeah, Americans should brace for a Trump dictatorship after this statement.
And even more kowtowing and pandering.
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Remember, it’s only genocide if it originates from occupied Poland. Otherwise, it’s just sparkling mass extermination.
Diet Genocide
Genocide Lite. Genocish. Genocisn’t.
My preferred flavor would be Zero Genocide.
Agreed. But would you also consider I Can’t Believe It’s Not Genocide! ™
Nah, it’s only genocide if it’s carried with the intent to target the whole ethnic group, including civilians. Something that if the IDF really wanted, would’ve meant 100 times the casualties.
Whole or in part. Read the definition.
I wasn’t clear. Apologies.
I meant whole as in both terrorists and civilians. And they’re not doing that, they’re targeting Hamas. If they’d target civilians, then x100 the casualties.
What if the IDF is pursuing a strategy of plausible deniability? What might that look like? The current violence is seeing Israel losing support throughout the world. If the IDF were to start a straight-up Holocaust, those countries that are protesting now might take direct military action to stop it. Plausible deniability might include, say, fostering the creation of a radical militant group, and directing funds to them in order to create a Big Bad to fight against as cover for genocidal land theft.
But they are effectively genociding palestinians. Not only by collateral damage in Gazs but through land theft and killing in the West Bank.
It’s like he wants young people and liberals to not vote for his dumb ass.
It’s more like he knows liberals and young people have to vote for him or they’ll get a fascist instead.
I’m fairly sure many people will just not go to the polls. I think he’s banking on a very risky and stupid idea here.
Literally the same play that cost them the election the last time with Clinton.
There are many people under the age of 25 who do not fully understand what happened on January 6. They are being inundated with news of genocide and how Biden is directly responsible. They do not fully understand what the first Trump presidency was. Only politics junkies seem to understand the threat of project 2025 and plan 47.
We have an entire generation who hate Biden and didn’t see the threat of Trump.
@GroundedGator @febra I hate to say it but this is literally Biden’s fault. He is completely undermining his own credibility with the whole Gaza situation and for no good reason
Assuming that’s correct; instead of pretending they’ll somehow magically all start understanding the “Trump threat” in the next 6 months, maybe Biden and the Dems should start actually giving them what they want. It’s not even a big ask. Just don’t do genocide. And definitely don’t do genocide and then say it’s not actual genocide. No one gives a fuck what you call it. Anyone with a conscience can see it’s wrong.
Anything short of giving young people whatever it takes to get them to show up for Biden is basically supporting Trump for president.
True up to a point. Youth at least are very fickle and very demoralized already with the lack of opportunities to be financially screwed.
Kinda looks like they’re getting a fascist either way - it’s kinda hard to make the case that somebody who supports with gifts of weapons and ammo a violent genocidal fascist movement activelly murdering civilians, including tens of thousands of childrens (some of which activelly targetted by snipers and using precision bombs) and activelly targetting medical personnel and journalists, isn’t himself a genocidal fascist, no matter what else he says: after all, even Hitler had a good side (he liked dogs) but that didn’t make him any less a genocidal fascist.
They’ll get a hard core fascist with Trump. With Biden they’ll get a fascist-lite. None of the offensive parts of fascism. Just the corruption and special interests dictating policy parts.
The US administration is so corrupt that it is hard to get anything useful done. Even if it is something that has been obvious for decades.
Tell me you don’t know what fascism is without telling me what fascism is.
They’ll find out
We’ll find out
FTFY
Thank you for fixing that for me, we were all so confused
More like he wants average middle aged swing state voters to vote for him, since those are the only people that really matter and they are typically pro Israel.
Okay but seriously who’s out there, wringing their hands, trying to figure out if they’ll vote Trump or Biden? No one. If you’re voting for Trump, there is absolutely nothing Biden (or Trump for that matter) could do to change your mind. All those centrist neolibs in the swing states are going to vote for Biden regardless, because there’s no one else for them to vote for. The true “undecided voters” are undecided between showing up and just not showing up. And shit like this just pushes them closer to the not showing up position. Every time Biden panders to his already locked in centrist base, instead of trying to get progressives to show up for him, it should be considered a willful attempt to get Trump elected.
It seems like the country is totally polarised because the most extreme people shout the loudest.
People who are undecided don’t make memes or aggressive twitter posts about how undecided they are etc.
And while the GOP establishment are fully on Trumps side there is a sizeable contingent of people who are usually republicans that are put off by trumps bullshit, but still don’t really want to vote for a “lib” like Biden either. And if he “supported hamas terorrists” that very well could be more than enough to put them off.
I’ll look myself, but any chance you’ve found any research with numbers for these groups? Are there more progressives and young people deciding between show up or not show up, or more centrists deciding between Biden and Trump?
It’s like “young people and liberals” aren’t a monolith and many of them are simply wrong as to the facts and have been tricked by foreign manipulators.
And we reject your rejection, now what mother fucker?
it’s a shame that the other option is even more pro israel :/
What? Siding with IC and stating Ben is a war criminal is pro Isreal?
Mind passing some of that shit you’re smoking to me
They’re referring to Trump and Republicans as the US election alternative
What about RFK? He’s crazy but also probably the first ‘good person’ to run for office since Obama, and unlike Obama might actually follow through on his antiwar promises.
He’s insane in too many ways and unreliable on anything he promises. That makes him a better fit for Trump supporters. But they’re too locked in to switch. If Kennedy had half a brain left he would have realized he’s going to help Trump get elected.
He’s currently taking voters from both sides of the line. More from Trump. You’re imposing a false dichotomy and making shit up with little to no logical backing, which if you had half a brain left, you wouldn’t do…
He’s not the “good person” you think he is. He’s just another mediocre Kennedy coasting on the privilege of his family.
This is an alternative?
Do you feel he is reading this? Do you feel better now?
Is anyone “important” on Lemmy?
No but I always saw this as a forum to debate, not yell into the void. Vent though.
Okay, if it makes you feel better, we can call it premeditated mass-murder instead.
Sparkling ethnic cleaning
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/SantaCruz-Spegazzini-CaidaAnimation.gif
The neoliberal colonialist stranglehold world order is collapsing so fast it is making my head spin.
The centrist, austerity minded democrats who have enjoyed power in the US for the last couple of decades are absolutely self immolating, they look like utter absolute murderous clowns when they claim with a straight face that the Palestinian Genocide is not a Genocide.
Make no mistake this is a turning point, no matter what happens in this election, this kind of democrat who supports whatever Israel does because… well because… to the point of pretending an ongoing genocide being done with your weapons and fighter jets doesn’t exist is toast.
No matter what happens in this election, the kind of mainstream media that is towing the line Israel by giving them complete diplomatic and narrative immunity towards being the bad guys when Israel is committing a genocide against the Palestinians every day as we speak… it is detonating the strangehold of conservative, ideologically bereft centrist who have been trying to manage the global status quo without actually conceding to progressive changes to it.
The critical change here is that milquetoast democrats used to be globally regarded as at least somewhat rationale and ethically minded compared to the dumpster that is american conservatism, but this genocide is thoroughly proving to the world that most centrist democrats are just the good cop to the bad cop republicans, and if push comes to shove a good cop has no problem filling in for the role of bad cop when they perceive it will retain their violent power.
I really don’t think the rich and powerful who controlling basically everything in the US have any idea how deep a majority of US citizen’s revulsion over the pointlessness of the Iraq war has burrowed into their psyche. They really don’t get it, they think we are just going to roll over and accept US imperialism/military industrial complex as “just the way it is honey” like our parents did but we are FAR stronger and more politically aware than our parents were and FARRRRRRR more jaded in a way that makes us suspect of the basic legitimacy of the military industrial complex at every turn we have to interact with it.
While I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, holy FUCK, you need to learn how to break up your thoughts with a period. You have 5 paragraphs and 6 periods.
That’s a symptom.
Oh. I get it.
He’s pregnant.
I’m pregnant with a podcast,
Run!
That’s very funny. I wish I could take credit for that joke but I was talking about schizophrenia.
Yeah… That’s how I read your post, but I paused and decided I wasn’t sure and I’d zig a little.
I mean… That is a lot of missed periods. I’d expect a baby or a medical condition, too.
I take this as a valid critique of myself and the way I write sentences like contestants on those shopping blitz game shows where you get a limited time but you can keep whatever fits in your cart if you make it back to the finish line in time.
The metaphor is imperfect because I (clearly) don’t have a timer.
Which Democrats want austerity??? This isn’t the UK.
Errrr…. you realize the US is one of richest nations that has ever existed and yet ~95% of people living in it are one or two crises away from collapsing?
There are homeless everywhere and if anything centrist democrats are giddy to criminalize the state of being without a home. Biden was an instrumental part of the crime bills that came to define some of the most vivid failures of neoliberalism. Kamala Harris has a similar history. Have these politicians evolved and changed? Yes of course but that isn’t my point.
My point is that is it really disputable at this point that modern centrist leftwing political groups in the US, UK and similar political environments are as associated with austerity policies as rightwing politicians? There are degrees of difference, but it is a contrast of magnitude not of ethics of attitude.
There are no left wing political groups in the US. Closest thing we’ve got is a centrist named Bernie who has no political party supporting him, and a ‘squad’ of Democrats pretending to be progressive while they support culturally conservative politics, virulent ethno-nationalism, and violently ignorant theocracy in other countries.
Where are the Biden boyfriends that call everyone that criticizes biden a Trump supporter? I said multiple times on lemmy that a lot of people go above and beyond to support this horrible person who repeatedly mentioned his fantasies for an israeli state and serving it since he was a kid.
Trump is worse but that doesn’t mean you can’t criticize this piece of shit.
And the worst thing is I live far away from the US and still get called Trump supporter for calling this sicko a sicko.
Trump is worse but that doesn’t mean you can’t criticize this piece of shit.
Trump says the quiet parts out loud. That’s what ultimately makes him “worse”. While Biden’s handlers give him the PC
Um, Actually its not a real genocide because it didn’t occur in the genocide region of Auschwitz,
Trump’s out there saying
Israel is killing all the terrorists and that’s good aktuly and we should be more like them.
But get down to the policies at hand and there’s no daylight between them.
So much of this election boils down to liberals being forced to face the nightmarish specter of modern American policy even from within their blue state enclaves. With Biden, they can pretend its all being done for good reasons and with a respectable veneer of Rules Based Internationalism. With Trump, they’re forced to watch a guy fuck the rest of the planet with the lights on, while his backers whoop and cheer and siege hail on national television.
But it boils down to optics. Whether we’re gearing up to bomb Iran, whether we’re buy Xinjiang textiles with one hand while wagging a finger at Beijing with the other, whether we’re giving Exxon subsidies to “research hydrogen alternatives” or just cutting them blank checks to drill baby drill, whether we’re holding kids in cages on the border under a rogue Republican governor or a fascist Republican president, its all the same fucking policies.
There’s a lot of people who think it’s a good idea to not vote in the hope that Biden will lose and that will teach the DNC a lesson.
That is a bit shortened. We demand Biden to stop supporting this genocide and start upholding international and US law in order to get a vote.
Saying you will vote for him no matter what just encourages the DNC to do whatever they want. Democrats fear the pro Israel lobby as that lobby will follow through on not giving them their votes, if they dont play their ball. If other people would realize their power by following through if the Dems refuse to listen, they could force the Dems to actually be a party of human rights and basic dignity and justice for all.
The thing is, we either get 2 more years of Biden, or 2 more years of Trump. Besides this one issue I don’t think Biden has been that bad. Trump and more broadly republicans have publicly declared their intent to move the country towards a dictatorship.
In the election 2 years from now, if Biden is the president, we will have an interesting primary to see who is the next DNC candidate. If Trump is president, I’m not sure the country will be in a state where that’s possible (not to mention that if it doesn’t get that bad, the DNC will likely put Biden on the ballot regardless of what happens this year).
The thing is, we either get 2 more years of Biden, or 2 more years of Trump.
And
Trump and more broadly republicans have publicly declared their intent to move the country towards a dictatorship.
Are incongruent.
Also, how long do you think presidential terms are? Why do you think we’re going to have another presidential election in 2 years?
You do realize that the election is this year right? Even further, if Biden wins this year, he couldn’t run for a third term if he (and the DNC) wanted.
Most importantly: if Trump wins this year, it won’t just be “2 more years of Trump.” If we listen to what Trump and the GOP has been telling us they will do (and we fucking should, read "Project 2025”), it won’t even be only 4 more years of Trump. It will mark the beginning of the Trump Family Dynasty and his name will rule the country for generations. You want Emperor Barron? I wish this was fucking hyperbole.
They’re not “moving toward a dictatorship,” this is it. This election will decide if democracy continues to exist in the US at all.
He’ll also be far far worse than Biden/Democrats regarding the one topic these people seem to suddenly give a shit about.
It’s shameful. To use the plight of the Palestinian people as a political cudgel. If these people gave a shit about this genocide, they would recognize that allowing Trump into the White House again will make it sooooooo much worse. Don’t think “it can’t get worse,” because we’re about to see it if he wins.
Understandable but some people forget that countries other than US exist. Like I can’t vote there lol. But I do understand your point. I’m just a bit irritated at lemmy users assuming everyone as an American.
that call everyone that criticizes biden a Trump supporter
Disingenuous as fuck.
So, how much and for how long does one need to support a genocidal fascist movement actively murdering civilians including tens of thousands of children, before it’s fair to describe such a person as a genocidal fascist himself?
I support a lot of really nice people, but that doesn’t make me one.
Do you activelly help them do good deeds or is your support for them only in your own mind and never voiced or only voiced because you think it’s a net positive for you to be preceived as “supporting good people”?
Because what we’re talking about with Biden and Zionism is equivalent to a guy who gives guns and ammo to Ku-Klux-Klan members activelly killing Afro-Americans, loudly proclaims he supports the Ku-Klux-Klan, denounces “n*gers” to the Ku-Klux-Klan, all the while loudly proclaiming the Ku-Klux-Klan is only defending themselves, claiming that courts prossecuting Ku-Klux-Klan members are wrong in doing so and that the Ku-Klux-Klan are not racists.
Kinda seems like such a person has well and trully crossed the boundary from “fair person” into “unjust to people who look different”, the boundary after than into “racist”, the boundary after that into “supporting racially motivated violence” and even the boundary after that into “supporting racially motivated murder”.
Sure, such person hasn’ actually killed any Afro-Americans himself. Does him not doing himself the deeds he so strongly supports really mean he’s not a murder-supporting racist?
Mind you, my methaphor breaks here because the Ku-Klux-Klan didn’t murder anywhere as many people as the Zionists, so the metaphor doens’t really cover Genocide and supporting it.
If they ask, sure.
what’s happening in America is not democracy, Joe, but what’s happening in Gaza is absolutely genocide, and has been since the 1940s.
Oh, well it’s totally okay then. /s
He’s might be technically right so far, since most of the population is still standing, but depending on where things go next this line could be remembered along with “peace in our time”.
Genocide, per it’s UN definition, just requires “actions with the intend to destroy, in whole or in part”. So no, just because they’re not done yet doesn’t mean it’s not genocide
Doesn’t that make every war genocide?
sorry, left out part of the definition:
any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.So destroying a military - no, destroying a national or racial group - yes
Don’t stop there:
The popular understanding of what constitutes genocide tends to be broader than the content of the norm under international law. Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:
-
A mental element: the “intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such”; and
-
A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
- Killing members of the group
- Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
- Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
- Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
- Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element.
-
Depends on what they do next, right? Technically they still haven’t, but that’s a bit of a minor detail since we all know guys like Smotrich want Palestine and/or Palesinians gone, and they’re doing things that would eventually lead to that outcome if continued.
You don’t need to be successful to have committed the crime.
I see it as a classic intent vs outcome. If someone tries to commit atrocities and fails then their moral character is just as bad. People can change and reform but the attempt, exuberance, and time involved are all bigger signals than how the victim is affected. Incompetence can’t be a defense for evil at a certain point.
Technically is doing a lot of work here, that was the point.
That being said, requirement for success varies by crime (murder charges are only used if it works), and success usually has to be reasonably forseeable in the cases where it isn’t. Genocide would definitely be in the latter category, and as it is it will be very hard for ZA’s lawyers to prove to the ICJ that Israel has attempted to kill all Palestinians in Gaza, given that only a fraction are actually dead, and Israel could do it very easily if they committed to it.
IANAL
You should go read what the UN has to say about genocide. You are wrong. The idea that you have to kill most or all of a group to be guilty of genocide is the biggest misconception there is about it. The entire idea is to prevent it from starting and if it does start, stop it before it gets to the proportions of the Holocaust. At any rate the ICJ just today ordered Israel to halt it’s offensive; allow official access for UN war crimes investigators; and let in all of the aid it’s holding at the borders. Netanyahu immediately refused all three orders.
How much more clear does it need to be?
Edit to add - Just because I can’t not. Attempted Murder is the crime they charge for trying to murder someone. So no you don’t get away just because you failed. And Israel is a lot closer to succeeding than it is failing.
Yeah, attempted murder is a different charge. That was, again, the point.
Technically is doing a lot of work here, that was the point.
^ You’re responding to something other than what I said, so I’ll just repost this.
The UN has written a lot about genocide, at various different levels with different levels of authority. Not all of it matches, and the only thing that’s definitely included is trying to remove a group one of the 5 ways listed.
At any rate the ICJ just today ordered Israel to halt it’s offensive; allow official access for UN war crimes investigators; and let in all of the aid it’s holding at the borders. Netanyahu immediately refused all three orders.
Yep, although that wasn’t a ruling on the charge of genocide itself.
Who cares what the specific charge is? Attempting the crime is still illegal. That’s the point. And those 5 ways are the definitions of Genocide.
Lawyers, judges, fact checkers. I’m not the first two, but I like to play at the third.
If you’re going by the Geneva convention and not something from the Lemkin school of thought, it’s easier to talk about. There’s an effort to create conditions of life which will kill Palestinians, and limited success, but calculated to destroy in whole or part is the sticky bit, since the body count is still low compared to the population. I don’t know, it’s like a drunk that beat someone severely. Was it a poor attempt to kill, or just a successful attempt to maim? The standard of proof required is usually beyond reasonable doubt.
If you were to put using starvation as a weapon or collective punishment to them, there wouldn’t be much doubt, but those are (slightly) lesser charges. Just like you could indict the drunk for aggravated assault or similar fairly plausibly.
How is a man made famine not calculated to destroy them at least in part? This isn’t a case of aid just having trouble. Israel refuses to let the vast majority of it into Gaza.
