He didn’t expel all Russians, just the ones working for sanctioned Russian companies.
I think given the current political situation this is the right call. No one knows what the Russian government might compel otherwise innocent devs to do.
That said, we (and I mean society, not any particular individual) should be mindful that we don’t slip into bigotry.
"Ok, lots of Russian trolls out and about.
It’s entirely clear why the change was done, it’s not getting reverted, and using multiple random anonymous accounts to try to “grass root” it by Russian troll factories isn’t going to change anything.
And FYI for the actual innocent bystanders who aren’t troll farm accounts - the “various compliance requirements” are not just a US thing.
If you haven’t heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by “news”, I don’t mean Russian state-sponsored spam.
As to sending me a revert patch - please use whatever mush you call brains. I’m Finnish. Did you think I’d be supporting Russian aggression? Apparently it’s not just lack of real news, it’s lack of history knowledge too."
fuck yes. fuck russia. fuck russians.
I’m Finnish. Did you think I’d be supporting Russian aggression? Apparently it’s not just lack of real news, it’s lack of history knowledge too."
Man, it’s like you spend centuries brutalizing all your neighbors, if not outright conquering them and enforcing holocausts, and this is the thanks you get!
Putin:
Russian culture is so underappreciated 🥺
No, it is appreciated. Just not in the way you want it to be.
fuck russians? fuck the Russian government and the people who support it, not all the russians.
“fuck the overwhelming majority of russians” doesn’t have the same ring to it.
This.
I have no problem with Russians, but I do have a problem with the Russian government, and that makes me suspect Russians due to the chance of the Russian government using its leverage to get them to do what they want. So I understand the move, but I’m saddened that FOSS gets sucked into international politics.
FOSS is inherently political, though, and an international collaboration like Linux is inherently internationally political. Allowing big corporations to influence the direction of the codebase? That’s political. Allowing the free usage and distribution of the software to anybody for any purpose not otherwise afforded by existing copyright law? That’s political. Collaborating with contributors from almost every country on Earth? That’s political. Being headquartered in the United States? Again political. Creating a hierarchy with Linus Torvalds at the top? The definition of politics.
It feels like people only start screaming “that’s politics though!” whenever it becomes political in a way that’s controversial to them – without recognizing how completely pervasive politics are in every single aspect of our lives. The fact we’re even talking on Lemmy right now is political – in all likelihood, we both decided that Reddit’s system of governance was unfair and thought a federated system was somehow more ideal, in this case a platform created by outspoken authcoms. That’s even disregarding the Internet which Lemmy sits on top of, including net neutrality, freedom of speech, the infrastructure connecting different jurisdictions, the way it came about through organizations like DARPA, CERN, the IEEE, and ICANN, etc.
It seems though that Linus didn’t make this decision for political reasons, but instead because he doesn’t want to get in trouble with the US government. He indicated that he was advised by lawyers to do this:
I’m not going to go into the details that I - and other maintainers - were told by lawyers.
but instead because he doesn’t want to get in trouble with the US government
I agree that that’s why he made the decision, but you understand how that’s political, right?
He probably isn’t too bothered by the sanctions given his comments about his Finnish nationality being a reason why he opposes Russian aggression. But still, it seems at the moment he’s just trying to follow the law.
I agree, and I mean to say that following the law is a political statement in the same way that him standing up and protesting by not following the law would be a political statement. We’re all political actors; it’s just that the amount of power we have to enact political change varies.
Fair points. I guess I happen to think Linus’s action is fair since I think the sanctioned companies are thought to be supporting Russia’s invasion in some way.
fuck russians.
this is racism and bigotry
“Russian” is not an ethnicity to claim racism against.
Hostility toward someone nationality is racism to me. If it’s not it sill equally bad.
That’s not how words work. Ordinary Russians don’t deserve blanket animosity or praise, yes. However, one can claim disliking Russians wholesale is bigotry, not racism. Words have definitions even if you pretend they don’t so you can virtue signal on the internet.
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Those were words, yes.
How the fuck you were able to mash them together like that is beyond me.
GPTs are degrading
Now do this with Israelis.
Linus is from Finland. Finns barely tolerate Russians under usual circumstances. These are not usual circumstances.
True he could have banned them long ago, it’s his project in the end, but he didn’t, he only did it after the sanctions
Sound like they are racists to me
I mean, that’s like calling a Native American racist for disliking European (white) Americans. Like sure, technically, but aren’t there some underlying issues at play that make the feeling more justified.
Technically America belongs to Native Americans and the occupation of their soil is still going but you don’t hear racists tantrums against europeans. Perhaps you should study Native American culture i believe you can get something from it.
I think many racists do in fact say Native Americans are throwing racist tantrums when they work towards gaining even the most basic of human rights.
Linus’s dad was a Finnish communist and lived in USSR for some time, one can say a VIP person. You actually lack the context to realize how important this is. Many people of such connections (not accusing Linus, no) are usually still connected to Russia’s regime more than, ahem, me. The documents about just whom that encompasses are still secret in Russian archives. Well, technically one can get a permission, but random people are refused it.
Finns barely tolerate Russians under usual circumstances.
Yes, we know that, massacring Russian civilian population during 1917-1918 and then doing that David-n-Goliath thing in the Winter War, which is the only thing they want to remember, and then 1941-1945 with Finnish troops participating in the blockade of Lengingrad and making concentration camps for civilian population, again.
I don’t get how that should work in Linus’s favor, though.
Oh, and also during the Cold War the foreign country most integrated into USSR’s MIC was Finland. Not something of the Warsaw Pact ones, but Finland.
You’re telling me they barely tolerated building warships for USSR, right? Poor guys.
And then people in the Interwebs are asking why some average Russian doesn’t go and rebel or blow up FSB buildings or something. I wonder the fuck why.
That’s why.
Just so we’re clear, your opinion is that Russians working for sanctioned companies should remain as maintainers of the kernel because Torvalds is a Finn and that he’s obligated to Russia because “Finland bad”?
So, therefore, Putin can and should exploit access to the kernel via these Russian maintainers because Finland is somehow historically worse than the USSR?
Am I misunderstanding you?
No, just that things said are inconsistent and partially wrong
Fool blocked.
If he did that that would have been genuine discrimination. If he has to do it now because of sanctions, then ok fine. But otherwise I don’t want to see an open source project treating people differently based on where they were born.
Come on lemmy, how is this pro-racism comment upvoted so many times? Please, think.
Oh no, the treaty-breaking, nuke-threatening, war-crime-committing invading force is being discriminated against!
Holy shit, gtfo. Maybe don’t be an actual cunt if you don’t want people to “discriminate” against you? The guy didn’t even fire all Russians, only those tied to sanctioned companies. He did less than should’ve been done. But that’s only because what should be done to Russia at this point is assassinating their leader, disarming the country, executing the army, installing a puppet government that ensures economic and military inferiority, and selling tickets to piss on Putins grave for the rest of the world to blow off some steam.
Edit: here’s a view from a Russian, maybe that helps:
I feel the same way about Americans.
We’ll let you know as soon as we find a reason to respect your malformed opinion.
Look as long as your a NATO nation, we’re a perfectly peaceful and reasonable super power with a military that would scorch the earth to ash within 24 hours.
“Russian” is not a race.
It is genuine xenophobia. I like in Poland, and its like you’re either a homophobe, or a xenophobe- with pretty limited inbetween. (And there are plenty of people who are both)
And Russians are peaceophobes? 😆
Ah, yes. Russia. A paragon of moral societal standards and behavior.
Save your sanity and do Settings -> Blocks -> Block instance -> lemmy.ml
Also perhaps block me if you strongly disagree with the above.
That instance’s mods blocked me this morning lol.
The amount of people simping for Russia in that other thread is insane. Apparently calling Ukraine a country of Nazis is fine, but saying Russia is a dictatorship is not lmao.
If you see a tankie or pro Russia comment, 99% of the time it’s a lemmy.ml poster
Hexgears and of course lemmygrad.ml are of the same kind
😄exactly! Phu, the brain gymnastics that those people are capable of is mind bending 🤣
Yeah, but most instances already defederated from them.
yep I got banned from there for simply stating that ukraine has a right to defend themselves after Modi called for “peace”. Apparently absolute pacifism is only required from one side.
Can we see where someone is hosting a Lemmy (domain, insnace, thing?)
Well I doubt it’s Mali.
https://check-host.net/ip-info?host=lemmy.ml
France. Maybe. It’s mostly guesswork, but gives the same location for hexbear.net.
It’s mostly cosplay commies rather than actual Russians.
Yea I figured it’s just a bunch of middle class kids who have the privilege of being online and complain. Also fuck Hexbear…all my homies hate Hexbear.
I guess, you got to check IP and see what country it belongs to, but if they use a VPS or VPN or both, you can’t really know where the person who manages the instance lives / operates.
Sometimes it is posted on the instance front page or about page.
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This topic has nothing to do with being “pro-Russian” instead its being pro-individualist and pro-open source
I’m pro open source, which is why I don’t want the Russian government interfering with it for their own geopolitical bullshit.
I agree, but people aren’t their government. Discriminating based on nationality is xenophobia.
Did you miss the fact that it’s not a blanket ban on Russians? If you work for a sanctioned company, then I’m sorry but you are out. Missed the chance to jump ship in the last twenty years of Putin turning Russia into a dictatorship? Well, I hope you like being sent to your death. Sad times, but let’s not pretend that this is discrimination.
From what I saw in the executive order it wasn’t limited to just sanctioned companies. Linus and other maintainers haven’t come out with which specific sanction they’re talking about so its just speculation
Banning contributions from sanctioned russian companies is not xenophobia. Pipe down.
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I heard Russia is full of Nazis, and if that level of hearsay is fine for staging a multi year invasion and destroying a thousand years of history it’s just FINE for segregating bad-actors and persona non grata.
Can’t deal with it? Move to a less shitty company not sanctioned by scumbags. Or even a less tribal country 🤷
I heard Russia is full of Nazis, and if that level of hearsay is fine for staging a multi year invasion and destroying a thousand years of history it’s just FINE for segregating bad-actors and persona non grata.
Linux maintainers aren’t invading Ukraine
Can we really be sure?
Some of us are actually normal
Yeah, when I created my Lemmy account I had to choose an instance before knowing anything about Lemmy yet. And .ml seemed like the default one to choose, given https://join-lemmy.org/ told me it is ran by the devs.
Oh well.
Similar story here tbh.
I see you, hang in there buddy!
Doesn’t help if the admins think you’re not. Which is why I had to relocate a community because of admin content meddling and instance users shitstorming in a waterglass.
I love it here as well 😁
Ee is cool, but your upload limits were crap.
Fair, but most of the time, photos that I post won’t get any better with more pixels anyway 😂
I throw a lot of low effort memes, so I need all the help I can get.
Seriously, the hexbears just moved one over to keep getting exposure.
Yesterday I accidentally commented in .ml and mentioned that voting third party in our current voting system is playing with fire to get a worse candidate in office. I was told I must therefore start a grassroots movement for ranked choice voting, because apparently I can’t have an opinion without a movement.
Normally I let a few downvotes get under my skin more than I care to admit, but in this setting it was kind of a badge of honor. Honestly it was kind of “fun” to see what people were saying.
Save your sanity and do Settings -> Blocks -> Block instance -> lemmy.ml
I approve this comment.
I would encourage that, but if your instance doesn’t defederate them you may have to go a bit farther since you’ll still get replies from lemmy.ml users, as users are not blocked as part of this functionality. And that is by design, it’s not meant to act as a replacement or alternative to defederation, it’s meant to act as an alternative to blocking all communities on an instance.
improved my lemmy experience ten fold just blocking that instance.
I hope people do not do that and take into account this campaign against lemmy.ml. I am aware of the accusations against the admins of this instance, but I practically never see here this kind of brigading, campaigning against whole instances like lemmy.world. Sure, I myself did make a bad comment or two about lemmy.world out of >800 comments, but that’s normal. I think the fair thing to do, is to respond in the same scale (i. e. blocking specific users) instead of going all ballistic with instance blocks.
I’d also like an option to just block/hide the instance part of user names. I don’t like what this bit of information is doing to discussions in Lemmy.
I don’t like what this bit of information is doing to discussions in Lemmy.
Cool. That’s fine that you don’t like it. However people have a right to not see what they don’t want to see. If they decide that means it’s lemmy.ml, then that’s their right.
Just like I have a right to not peer with lemmy.ml if I didn’t want to.
Hell I have a hard block on ALL Russian and Chinese IP addresses. Not because I have something against the people. But I just don’t want to deal with the headache of accepting traffic from those countries.
Just because some (or even a majority) of the people on lemmy.ml are fine to interact with doesn’t mean that there isn’t contention from other users and admins on that instance.
I think we agree on everything. You do you.
You could also just move instances if you don’t want to be blocked. Hexbear, and ML are hot spots for the worst kind of people.
I know I can. Being blocked is something I do not have any issues with. My comment was merely my point of view. If someone is being actively bothered by the admins of the instance I’m in, it’s completely fair to block it. However, to block whole instances for ideological differences is kind of immature.
I think the fair thing to do, is to respond in the same scale (i. e. blocking specific users) instead of going all ballistic with instance blocks.
it’s not just random users, the mods of larger communities like !worldnews@lemmy.ml will delete your comments and ban you simply for disagreeing with them.
For this, some people proposed to move the community from one instance to another. Now, it seems to me like the incentive to comment on instances ideologically biased for people who cares about the voting system is basically to troll the opposing instance. Which leads to this petty battle that I will ignore from now on.
EDIT: It’s also interesting to note that lemmy.ml is not like any other instance. In fact, it would be beneficial to not have big communities here. My account is here because it’s an old account, but lemmy.ml should be more like a “testing” instance, and they probably shouldn’t be signing up more people. The admins and devs acknowledge this from time to time. So, I guess everyone wins with this.
This is about open-source being open. I’m a very non-tankie, and I think this is bad- though a bit better if its only people working for sanctioned companies.
Go look at the principles of open-source or free software as defined either by the OSI and the FSF and then come back when you find the one that says that Linus needs to violate US sanctions to keep employees of Russian companies in trusted roles within his project.
Also, what does this have to do with being tankie or not? Modern Russia is very openly not communist.
.ml is full of tankies. Also, nothing in open-source principles say that to my knowledge. Am I not allowed to have beliefs not explicitly defined by the OSI?
The OSI’s definition of open-source software is the de facto definition used by most people, and for most of the remaining people that don’t, they (mistakenly, because they define “free” software, not “open-source”) defer to the FSF’s defintion of free software.
So yes, you should be explicitly noting that what you define as “open” has nothing at all to do with the far-and-away most widely used definition(s) of “open-source”.
Yes, and I said I want open-source to be open. As in not just open-source, but also open to all. That is my personal moral value, and I advocate for that. What the OSI supports has nothing to do with that.
I want a lot of things too, but what I want most of all is to live in a society governed by the rule of law. There are no absolute rights - limiting the freedoms of people who are complicit in crimes or enable them is how we protect the rights of everyone else. Simple as.
Limiting the freedoms of innocent people who happen to live in a country doesn’t protect the rights of others.
This is about open-source being open.
tell that to the mods of !worldnews@lemmy.ml who ban you for disagreeing with them.
Please stip blocking people, please stip talking about blocking everyone
Yes, i gettit. Different opinions can be annoying but if we don’t all participate in. A similar environment.we all just disappear in our little echo chamber pillars, unable to hear or understand the others, which leads to more extremist opinions on all sides.
We NEED to hear others, if not just for the fact that others may NEED to hear our voices too.
I honestly this echo chamber crap is squarely caused by the Internet, the tool that promised to bring humanity together, and instead ended up dividing us more than ever because anyone hearing an opinion they don’t like immediately bans that voice. Can’t have anyone disagreeing now!
I get it, there are some stupid opinions out there, dangerous ones too, but the more we ban them, the more they will only be able to talk eachother into extremism and the WILL be back, with more people, and more extremist opinions.
FFS, we need to learn to start listening to each other again. An entire generation has grown up with “if you don’t like to hear that opinion, just have it banned”, and it’s not helpful.
Early Internet was a wild west crazy town for sure, loads of assholes lurking around, but it was better than what we have now, where EVERY space is curated and hawkishly guarded against those that might even look in the wrong direction.
I’ve spent quite some time on right wing subs back in the day in Reddit, discussing whatever topic with hard line conservative right wing types and when you do you find out they are human too, usually with a lot of fears, and you actually get to understand why they feel the way they feel, and you can get them to understand that yeah, maybe it’s not the best solution. You find common ground and got somebody a little closer to the light. Yes, I’m a big fan of that black guy (forgot his name) who goes out to talk to KKK members to convert them away from the KKK.
I know this isn’t for everyone, but a lot of us can and should step up and start talking, start listening. I’m not saying st all you should agree with a neo nazi, but you can listen to him or her, understand where they’re coming from, and have them do the same. Once you both see the humanity in each other you can actually make everyone be a little better.
It’s better than the alternative where the inevitable outcome is that we’ll start having civil wars everywhere and just kill those we oppose.
No, actually…
… but seriously, the Internet is so different from real life that no comparisons make sense. Opinions that would have been uttered by the craziest village idiots in a local gas station 30 years ago are now distributed and magnified by the social media machine. In the past, you could see with your eyes, hear with your ears and even smell with your nose which people you really really should not listen to, but in the internet, those people look exactly like you and me.
And it’s all sapping your energy and time, the most precious resources you have.
That’s why blocking is fine, even whole instances if they are shown to be crazy enough.
Also, I would like to point out that the creators of the clients for the first community platforms (usenet) recognized early on the importance of shutting people up (killfiles).
I understand what you mean but I’ll have to disagree. Letting people just do anything like that is like not charging criminals for the crimes they’ve commited. It could make people act similarly.
We NEED to hear others, if not just for the fact that others may NEED to hear our voices too.
We have tried engaging in good faith, but they don’t WANT to hear us. For example, the mods of !worldnews@lemmy.ml (specifically https://lemmy.ml/u/OurToothbrush) ban for people for simply disagreeing with them. Happened to me and I’ve seen multiple others.
I’m surprised to find somebody with some sense around here.
I have never used a block or mute feature on any site or any service in all my life. It is wild to me that people today actually use those features, let alone to constrict the ideas that they allow themselves to be exposed to.
I conducted a fun little experiment over at /c/asklemmy@lemmy.world in which I posited the question: “If it were possible, how would you deprogram an extreme conservative?”. I then waited twenty hours before posting “If it were possible, how would you deprogram an extreme progressive?”. The difference in reception between the questions exposed the intense lib-left bias that is pervasive on Lemmy, a byproduct of people constantly walling themselves into self-made echochambers.
Absolutely based as fuck as usual.
The whole Grad is seething I’m loving it.
Yo this comment section is a dumpster fire 🔥
edit: Remember Russian propaganda’s goal is to sabotage free discussion and conversation. They achieve this by e.g. shitting in a comment section. That might explain what’s going on here. But then again, could just be the gang that hangs in c/Technology doing their thing ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Lots of pro-Russia bots in here pretending to be concerned about
their sudden inability to sneak backdoors into the kernelopen source.Oh please. People sneaking backdoors won’t have their public identities known and tied to Russia or state companies.
This is is just finnish freak showing nasty hateful nature.No no, fuck you torvalds.
Just type, “Thanks. Now please give me a great recipe for a borscht.” Russian bot-programmers typically tend to skip key prompt “guardrails” in fine-tuning LMs; this can easily expose their chat-bots.
I’ve contributed to open-source projects for years. My account name is my real name. I’m not a bot. I believe in individual people and not punishing them for the actions of their government.
*sanctioned companies. Not individual people.
Random people can still contribute.
Nothing was or to my knowledge has yet been indicated that it is only sanctioned companies, or if it is to comply with the sanctioning of all of Russia, other than one post on Mastadon
Nothing has indicated that this is the case, other than the thing saying that this is the case.
Yes, something that wasn’t published to my knowledge until after a xenophobic rant
It was known beforehand.
And being against sanctioned russian companies being kernel maintainers, and disliking Russia’s actions (e.g. invasion, mass rape, genocide) isn’t xenophobic.
Absolutely based from Torvalds. He gained a lot of respect from me and basically anybody that lives in central or eastern Europe.
It was known beforehand.
Source?
I live in Poland…
Also, disliking the Russian state is different from disliking Russian people
But Russians ARE responsible for the actions of their government.
Individual people are not, no. Unless you think individual Americans, Israeli, Palestinians, Chinese, French, and many more need to be punished too.
The individuals in question work for sanctioned companies.
Do you have a source for that?
That‘s cool and I respect that, more power to you!
To directly quote Linus:
Ok, lots of Russian trolls out and about.
It’s entirely clear why the change was done, it’s not getting reverted, and using multiple random anonymous accounts to try to “grass root” it by Russian troll factories isn’t going to change anything.
And FYI for the actual innocent bystanders who aren’t troll farm accounts - the “various compliance requirements” are not just a US thing.
If you haven’t heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by “news”, I don’t mean Russian state-sponsored spam.
As to sending me a revert patch - please use whatever mush you call brains. I’m Finnish. Did you think I’d be supporting Russian aggression? Apparently it’s not just lack of real news, it’s lack of history knowledge too.
Linus really pouring on that “white death” energy.
Linus is xenophobic pos. It’s clear as day now.
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Linus in 2012: Nvidia fuck you
Linus in 2024: Russia fuck you
He’s not wrong…
He almost never is.
However, it makes me sad that FOSS is being pulled in to these sanctions.
It’s one thing to be uncooperative with Linux development.
A very different thing is to introduce vulnerabilities into existing working code.
Unrelated but nice profile picture!
No, fuck you Torvalds.
russian economy after over 1k days of war is evaporized and putin now is Xis little dog. so if we all work together now nobody will remember a country called russia in 100 years. nations are just a phantasy and it wont hurt to let go of some.
Good cleanup on the security vulnerabilities!
Honestly, that’s the main thing I was thinking.
Anyone wanting to put vulnerabilities into Linux is probably capable of not looking like they are in Russia…
It’s a statement: Russia as the only country on the world is not allowed to participate to the biggest human collaboration in existence which runs 90% of all computers due to bad state actions.
They should fucking speak up to Putin not Torvalds.
Did u speak to Bush when us invaded Iraq and afganistan?
I wouldn’t want to have FSB agents maintaining my open source either.
Source that any of them were?
The article we’re talking about?
Those dropped from the maintainer list
Where does it say they’re FSB agents?
It’s really awesome to expel by nationality, even including people who’ve long moved out and immigrated years ago and don’t support the invasion and war waged on Ukraine /s
Honestly fuck Russia ofc, but this goes a bit too far into the grey area between hawkish-reasonable and discriminatory, and on the latter side I’m not sure who and/or what this is meant to help, nor does it seem particularly fair to those individual contributors to keep their code yet remove attribution and mailing list entries.
EDIT: holy shit the bloodlust in the comments here is actually unreal, even on arr slash neoliberal and the politics communities here on lemmy the comments are way more sane.
Why are people so fundamentally incapable of nuanced judgement. According to people in this comment section, a human is entirely defined by their country of origin. What is this witch hunt level, toddler IQ thinking. Are people really so desperate to have a “bad guy” that they can blame everything on? This dehumanization of people is wild to me.
a human is entirely defined by their country of origin
This reeks of Americanism, yanks are absurdly obsessed with race and nationality
The irony of your comment is not lost on me.
But yeah if you were to measure a country by its loudest voices then that would be accurate.
Russia: The stupidest meanest most corrupt and lazy loudest voices since The Revolution
A “funny” joke in the US is asking a non-white person where they’re from and they respond with something like “Indiana”
Americans are fuckin idiots
source: at least two high viewership TV shows
Please tell me of this enlightened place you come from where racism and discrimination do not exist. Surely they also are accepting refugees and I need but apply? No?
Everyone but my tribe are _______. Hehe I’m so clever.
It’s just another self-hating American
What does this even mean? What TV shows are you even talking about? Indiana is a US state.
a human is entirely defined by their country of origin
That’s missing a big part of the justification here. When you’re from a given country, that country frequently has a lot of influence over you. You probably have family and other ties in your home country, and those can be used as leverage to get you to do what the state wants. And when your country is in active opposition to a large portion of the free world, it makes a lot of sense for people to be extra cautious in who they deal with, because it’s never clear if that person is being manipulated by their former state.
So excluding someone based on nationality can absolutely make sense as an easy rule of thumb to avoid most of the problems stemming from that state.
Would you agree it’s a good thing to avoid US software as they’ve incorporated secret surveillance into law through letters of national security to private companies?
And by extension, perhaps even shunning US citizens?
As a US citizen, I care less about where the software comes from, but who hosts that software, so I tend to use FOSS products and services, preferring to self-host where it’s not too annoying.
I don’t think anyone should shun citizens from any country, but we should be wary of trusting citizens from countries where the government has a larger influence. So we should be hesitant to trust people from Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran (and a bunch of others, I’m just listing the official enemies of the US), especially if they still live in those countries. That doesn’t mean we should shun people from those countries (I have an awesome coworker from Iran), just that we should hesitate to put them into influential positions. I have no problem collaborating with people from any of those countries, I just think we should be a little extra careful when there’s a stronger incentive for their government to get involved (and manipulating Linux is attractive for pretty much every government, esp. my own).
I have no problem collaborating with people from any of those countries we should hesitate to put them into influential positions
“I’m an American, and therefore I’m better”
where the government has a larger influence
We’re literally talking about Linux Foundation making these changes to comply with requirements of your government.
We’re literally talking about Linux Foundation making these changes to comply with requirements of your government.
In leadership, not code. That’s a pretty big difference.
I also think we shouldn’t have people from the NSA, CIA, or FBI as maintainers either, because they have clear conflicts of interest. That said, I think it’s a lot less likely for the US government to extort a maintainer to let bad code through than the Russian government. It’s much more likely for the US government to try to hide bad code in the normal review process, and I’m sure that happens w/ Russian spy agencies as well, but allowing someone in a region that has demonstrated that they’re willing to strong-arm people into doing things that benefits the state (i.e. through threats or even outright force) to hold a maintainer position in a very influential piece of software isn’t a great idea, especially when their government is choosing to be an international pariah.
I have zero problem with Russians contributing code to the kernel, I just think it’s wise to remove Russian citizens from leadership positions to limit the impact of Russian interference in Linux development.
You are talking about hypothetical situations in the organization with around 2694 maintainers. What I find interesting, is that no one in this thread thought it would be good to check if these 11 already contributed something harmful. Instead, it’s just “good, we prevented a bad thing”.
Anyway, your extreme take “ban all Russians because what if” goes much further than what happened in reality (“ban Russians working for companies under sanctions”): https://social.kernel.org/objects/860ef93c-229b-4070-8ee6-cb80d1f51337
Should we exclude people from states actively fueling a genocide?
That’s completely unrelated to contribution to FOSS. The only way it would be relevant is for software projects that do some kind of filtering, so something like Lemmy might be an area where I’d hesitate to put someone from Israel, Gaza, Russia, or Ukraine into a maintainer/moderator/admin role because they could influence what content is viewed by users in a way that paints their country in a better light.
But someone from the US is fine?
The US also has some incentives here, but I’d say it’s far less likely to interfere than the ones I mentioned. As long as there’s enough variety (i.e. some people from the EU and other regions), it should be fine.
Yeah. Times like this I wonder whether a better world is even really possible, or whether social liberalisation was but a blip on a trajectory of bigotry, antagonism, tribalism and savagery.
Even in harmless contexts, the commodification of national identity as the first and foremost trait of a person even for the purposes of smalltalk or jest always makes me think if perhaps most are far more nationalist than they’d care to admit or even themselves think. It’s a haunting thought.
Have you even read the policy? “The people removed from maintainer positions were identified as employed by companies on the US and EU sanctions list. These companies are directly involved in the Russian military complex and therefore are directly complicit in war crimes being committed daily in Ukraine”. Racist? My ass.
This is not about the removed maintainers. Its about this comment section.
Because as long as the Russian state exists and can point to their “history” as an empire and use it as an excuse to take over their neighboring countries (like Latvia, the place where I’m from), I won’t be satisfied.
Unfortunately nobody is bombing Moscow yet, so anything that isolates and makes the population more angry and can hopefully topple the government is a good thing in my book
It’s disappointing behavior by Linus. It’s understandable that sanctions could force the removal of people just for being Russia.
His reply however shows he personally is in favor of removing people just for being Russian.
I wonder if any of the people who pressured him to take some time off for being a “jerk” will give a shit for this response.
keep their code yet remove attribution
Isn’t that a violation of the GPL?
Have you ever wondered if a russian can get a non .ru domain, and still collaborate? .ru and .su tlds are directly controlled by the Russian state
One of the mainrainers had a gmail.
Yeah for sure. If that’s the basis then just block those domains. Unless I misunderstood, which is totally possible, it doesn’t seem like that’s the entire extent of the block.
You sound surprised. Lemmy.world is the biggest propaganda instance on Lemmy but they’ll tell you it isn’t and it’s only propaganda when the other guys do it.
Nah, that honor definitely goes to lemmy.ml
Nah, pretty sure lemmygrad and hexbear are worse, but lemmy.ml is pretty terrible as well (and often more subtle).
They migrated to lemmy.ml because they kept getting blocked.
After browsing comments on this post I think there’s awful people on basically all instances.
True, but there’s a pretty big difference in terms of concentration.
Russia represent Russian citizens the same way the US represent US citizens. If you’re an US citizen and you think US international actions look bad on you then tough luck. Being a citizen of a specific state comes with its own responsibilities and consequences. If Russian nationals have long moved out of Russia and migrated elsewhere and don’t support anything Russia does, why are they still Russian citizens? If they don’t want to get sanctioned and they’ve long migrated from Russia they should apply for citizenship elsewhere. If they choose to stay Russian citizens that’s on them.
As for nationality vs citizenship. Nationality is too vague of a term because it can mean both citizen of a state and originating from said state. I’m pretty sure in this case the discussion is about people who are Russian citizens, not people who originate from Russia but are no longer associated with them. Using nationality only muddies the discussion.
Congratulation, you are part of the problem!
So what are we supposed to do?
Not sanction Russia?
Apply sanctions on an individual basis?
EDIT: Nothing of value down below, just me and someone who only wants to be outraged. Delve deeper of your own accord.
Are you under the impression I’m some kind of strategical genius of political negotiation? I have no idea.
My point is that holding everybody responsible for what the specific form of government of the specific country they happened to be born into is a confortable truth to push back on the much more controversial take of all of us being the very same thing.
And to get slightly more practical, it’s asinine to suggest that anybody that disagrees with a government has the means, or the will, or the duty to straight up move to another country (obviously to a flawless country, good luck with that).
I’ll ask differently. Let’s just assume there is a way to make sure there is no overreach of sanctions, but it’s going to cost millions of tax dollars or euros. Would you rather have that money spent on things that are close to you (education, healthcare, infrastructure etc) or would you want that money to be spent identifying which Russians should or shouldn’t be sanctioned?
And to get slightly more practical, it’s asinine to suggest that anybody that disagrees with a government has the means, or the will, or the duty to straight up move to another country (obviously to a flawless country, good luck with that).
I agree, somethings shit just sucks. However, the other person said:
even of people who’ve long moved out and immigrated years ago and don’t support the invasion and war waged on Ukraine
Those people have already had the means, will or duty to move to another country. What’s their excuse for keeping the Russian citizenship?
Those people have already had the means, will or duty to move to another country. What’s their excuse for keeping the Russian citizenship?
There’s plenty of reason, the most likely is that they love their country, their homeland, their city, the network of friends, the memories and they hope, one day, to be able to get back.
Let’s just assume there is a way to make sure there is no overreach of sanctions, but it’s going to cost millions of tax dollars or euros. Would you rather have that money spent on things that are close to you (education, healthcare, infrastructure etc) or would you want that money to be spent identifying which Russians should or shouldn’t be sanctioned?
Would you still love me if I was a giant moth?
There’s plenty of reason, the most likely is that they love their country, their homeland, their city, the network of friends, the memories and they hope, one day, to be able to get back.
So it’s literally their decision to keep their citizenship and be sanctioned, but you’re still outraged about it?
Would you still love me if I was a giant moth?
I would definitely hate you less because I really hate trolls.
Are you under the impression I’m some kind of strategical genius of political negotiation?
The way you denigrate different opinions, it seems you may be the one to think that, actually.
That’s just the misanthropy leaking…
It’s besides the point because with the Linux kernel should be run under a principle akin to net-neutrality where we do not let geopolitics affect it (do you really want Trump’s America to have legal power over it?)
The solution here is simple, just do not kick the maintainers unless they have confirmed ties to the Russian state. It’s not always practical to make sanctions precisely targeted, but in this case it actually is easily so.
Let us all love Lain 😁
Other than that, can we still trust .ru and .su domains?
And you don’t seem to understand ~~
can we still trust .ru and .su domains?
I wouldn’t, personally. It’s not like Russians cannot obtain non-.ru domains and if anything those anti-war are inclined to do so to avoid scrutiny, especially with anti-putin russian news orgs like e.g. meduza.
Definitely not .su unless you know what you’re doing and what you’re doing is some sketchy shit.
Nobody could ever trust .su domains, it’s always been a hive of scum and villainy. No joke, it’s been notorious for scamming and various cyber crime, which is a shame since it’s a great novelty domain.
Many know it from piracy 🤭
Apply sanctions on an individual basis?
Exactly. ACF has published a list of every single person responsible for the war. Most of them are not sanctioned because they are filthy rich and have already bought themselves passports in various EU countries. Targeting Russian passports does absolutely nothing to them as they can just use another.
Sanctions are to punish the whole country including individuals. Sanctions work because it makes lives of individuals worse so that they have reason to be unhappy and do something against the reasons the sanctions is put on them. It makes it harder for leaders to be accepted, if under their power live gets worse. And if a leader is not accepted by enough of their people, the chances of resistance is bigger. And the countries that have put sanctions on, want exactly that.
This idea ignores how Russia works. Everyone already knows it’s a totalitarian shithole. They just don’t have the means to fight it, so they either lay low and play along, or try to get the fuck out. Sanctions hit the second group, as well as companies that implement them because they’re losing income. In fact, older folk here still grumble at USSR collapse and how effective free reign of capitalism was in the 90s at extracting wealth out of the country.
Even if that idea was to hold any water, straight up blocks are not what you’d need. For example, when I open up a site and I see a block page, the idea that pops into my head is always the same - “what a bunch of assholes…”. I can bypass the block either way, but the difference is that it can say either “blocked by the ministry of truth”, or “blocked because ur russian, haha get rekt”. Given how easy it is to get hit by censorship for innocent things, it’s rather easy to shift the blame, while keeping the business running, by just standing up to the ideas of free speech, like not removing the “celebrating the pride month” logo in that country specifically, like all of them did…
I guess the politicians of the countries having the sanctions in place have still to see and learn how the Russian people react to sanctions. I think many of them only know the Russian culture from some “schoolbooks” if even (like me 😅)
I maintain US citizenship as the only biological child of my parents in case I need to be there for them due to an emergency or, later, end-of-life care. I cannot move them to Japan nor would they want to.
So hypothetically let’s say there’s a project or a job or anything of the sorts that you personally want to do, and that something requires that you’re not an US citizenship. I assume you’d stick with your parents and not get a Japanese citizenship. Would you accept that as the compromise you personally have to make (choosing the wellbeing of your parents over the thing you want to do) or would you complain that you’re being treated unfairly?
I would stick with my parents. I also have other citizenship and Japan would require giving up all citizenship to become a Japanese citizen. I would complain that it is bullshit as I do today about Japan’s current citizenship laws.
I also have other citizenship and Japan would require giving up all citizenship to become a Japanese citizen. I would complain that it is bullshit as I do today about Japan’s current citizenship laws.
Okay, but that’s irrelevant. I simply pointed at Japanese citizenship because your brought up Japan. The compromise was between keeping US citizenship to take care of your parents vs renouncing the US citizenship to do the thing you want to do. And you compromised to take care of your parents. That is a decision you would make.
So why are you defending the Russians abroad who have decided to keep their Russian citizenship? They also have a choice between keeping the Russian citizenship and fall under sanctions or renounce their citizenship and not fall under sanctions. It’s their decision to make.
As for Russians within Russia. Sad to say but they’re fucked regardless. I imagine the sanctions preventing them from working on Linux is the least of their problems. And as I pointed out in my other comment, would you be willing to spend your tax dollars to make sure the right Russians get sanctioned instead of spending those tax dollars in a way that would benefit you?
I imagine the sanctions preventing them from working on Linux is the least of their problems
It’s even more problematic for users of Linux. Less maintainers.
True, but that’s because Linux is kind of in a bind due to this war, but Linux probably benefits more from aligning with the western powers rather than fight for a handful of maintainers. Not that Linus would fight for Russian maintainers.
If they don’t want to get sanctioned and they’ve long migrated from Russia they should apply for citizenship elsewhere
Have you ever thought about doing this yourself? Don’t have to go far to figure that it takes at least 5 years of hard work in most cases, if possible at all. Citizenship unfortunately isn’t something you can acquire or renounce at will. Not without being obscenely rich, that is.
I never said it’s easy. I can understand someone keeping their citizenship out of convenience because the process of obtaining a different citizenship is difficult. However, I wouldn’t call it impossible. Based on my country the most time-consuming part about getting the citizenship is having to actually live here, which is at least 8 years under the residency permit. The language proficiency test and constitution (and citizenship act) examinations take an effort but are not insurmountable if you’re serious about getting a different citizenship. I haven’t gone through the process itself because I’ve never had the need, but based on what the legal requirements are I don’t see how that’s only for the obscenely rich. If you’re permanently settled elsewhere it’s a matter of time and effort.
I think my point still stands. If they have the option to choose a different citizenship and they choose not to, that’s on them. And when it comes to this specific instance I’m assuming some good will on from the rest of Linux maintainers. Hartman said “They can come back in the future if sufficient documentation is provided.” I assume if the Russian maintainers showed that they’ve passed the citizenship examinations and their different citizenship is only a matter of time, then that should be sufficient documentation to get them back on the list.
Is it any 8 years, or continious 8 years? In most places, the requirement is for continious, which is a tough ask. Imagine not being able to leave the country for almost a decade.
And you need a reason to get residence permit. In most cases there are few: living with spouse, reuniting with family, working, studying, or doing business. Of those, only work, study and business are the ones that are realistically achievable.
For work, there’s usually also a requirement for employeer to prove that there are no natives available to fill the role. This is a tough process, which takes a lot of time and no guarantee it’d even get approved. So, not many employees even bother unless you have exceptional skills.
For study, you would have to actually study to avoid expulsion, while somehow earning enough on some part-time remote work to support yourself (or have enough savings to support yourself for years). And then, bachelors is not enough so you must go for PhD. Meanwhile, in both above cases you have to also learn local language. I’m sure there are people who could pull this off, but, again, it’s quite exceptional.
Last is business. Usually the requirement is to invest somewhere in the ranges of $100k to $500k into local economy. That’s not filthy rich, but, for context, for Russian it’d take 3 years of fighting on the frontlines to earn as much, with a wage considered good enough to risk dying for… And then the country can still deny you permit without any reason.
It’s because of this, most people I know, who chose to leave the country keep their passports and either settle in Armenia and Georgia with 182/365 days renewable visa-free entry, or run circles between Serbia-Montenegro or Thailand-Vietnam.
There are also interesting opportunities with digital nomad visas, but, again, the requirements out of reach for most.
But for oligarchs, this is pennies. They can buy a few outright, then fly private jet to the US as tourists with pregnant wives, get children born there, then send them to study in London. Apply for family reunifications, bam, theyre now citizens of US and UK, in addition to all previous ones.
I assume if the Russian maintainers showed that they’ve passed the citizenship examinations and their different citizenship is only a matter of time
It’s the other way around. You have to live for X years to be eligible for the test. Given a common requirement of 5 years, they would have to have started this process 2 years before the war broke out.
Russia represent Russian citizens the same way the US represent US citizens.
Lolwut. Russia isn’t even a democracy.
If you’re an US citizen and you think US international actions look bad on you then tough luck.
You really think Joe Schmoe Ignoramus from Shaboygan, Wisconsin just trying to buy gas is to be held responsible for the civilian deaths in Palestine? War in Iraq? Unhinged.
Being a citizen of a specific state comes with its own responsibilities and consequences.
No, because being a citizen of a state is not a choice. You are born where you’re born.
If Russian nationals have long moved out of Russia and migrated elsewhere and don’t support anything Russia does, why are they still Russian citizens?
Because they may have family (e.g. elderly parents that require care) there and prospects of being able to visit otherwise aren’t great.
If they choose to stay Russian citizens that’s on them.
But that’s besides the fact actually getting a citizenship in another country is very very difficult. I’ve been in the UK for like 15 years, since 10 or so years old, and only just barely eligible now, gonna take another 2 years if not more to go through the process.
Your entire comment is “Tell me you’re a westerner without the least bit of awareness of how immigration works without telling me.” basically, living happily with a golden US passport or in the Schengen, not how it works for the majority of the world, or there’d be no one left in the global south.
Nationality is too vague of a term because it can mean both citizen of a state and originating from said state.
No it really can’t.
Nationality is the legal status of belonging to a particular nation, defined as a group of people organized in one country, under one legal jurisdiction, or as a group of people who are united on the basis of culture.
In international law, nationality is a legal identification establishing the person as a subject, a national, of a sovereign state. It affords the state jurisdiction over the person and affords the person the protection of the state against other states.
Oh boy. I’ll respond only once and if you throw another wall of text I’m just fucking off.
Lolwut. Russia isn’t even a democracy.
Officially it is. I know in practice it isn’t but the only ones who realistically can turn it into an actual democracy are Russian people. I don’t think we should give them an exception just because their country has gone to shit.
You really think Joe Schmoe Ignoramus from Shaboygan, Wisconsin just trying to buy gas is to be held responsible for the civilian deaths in Palestine? War in Iraq? Unhinged.
Directly responsible? No. Indirectly? Yes. It’s like people have no fucking clue what a country is. It doesn’t just prop up out of nowhere. Someone somewhere defined a country and when it comes to democracies (even dysfunctional ones like Russia and the US) the people set up the country for themselves. It’s their country and whether they like it or not, they are collectively responsible for what their country does. If they’re not responsible then who is responsible for the US supporting Israel? The politicians? Who votes the politicians in power? The people. The Lobbyists? The lobbyists lobby to politicians and the politicians get chosen by the people. The masses being stupid and easy to manipulate is a different topic, but it doesn’t change that despite collectively making bad decisions the people are making those decisions.
No, because being a citizen of a state is not a choice.
It literally is. If it wasn’t a choice you couldn’t choose to become a citizen of a different state. Your initial citizenship isn’t a choice because you’re born with it but you’re also born with your initial sex, doesn’t mean you can’t choose a different sex as you grow older.
Because they may have family there and prospects of being able to visit otherwise aren’t great.
And that’s their decision to keep their citizenship. Just like it would be my decision if I chose to have a diarrhea takeaway today. Or should I blame my diarrhea on you?
But that’s besides the fact actually getting a citizenship in another country is very very difficult. I’ve been in the UK for like 15 years, since 10 or so years old, and only just barely eligible.
I can’t believe I took the effort to look up how UK citizenship works but if you’re only barely eligible after 15 years you are clearly leaving out some key information. The “don’t be poor” part of ILR is kinda stupid so if it’s that I get it, but beyond that you shouldn’t be barely eligible unless you’ve sloppy with your visa’s or have been regularly traveling in and out of the UK.
And my point is that while getting a citizenship can be difficult, it is not impossible.
No it really doesn’t.
It clearly was vague considering how many other comments are mixing up someone being born in Russia or having Russian heritage with someone actually being Russian. And to point to the exact same wiki page:
As such nationality in international law can be called and understood as citizenship,[35] or more generally as subject or belonging to a sovereign state, and not as ethnicity.
responds with wall of text
“if you throw another wall of text I’m just fucking off.”
Cute.
I know in practice it isn’t but the only ones who realistically can turn it into an actual democracy are Russian people.
Don’t hold your breath. Russians are absolutely scared into submission and honestly they’re not wrong to be scared. Political prisoners don’t have any real human rights nor do their families. In a country where the average person can barely scrounge for a car, a well-funded, organized resistance is unlikely to accomplish anything so complex and significant as a revolution towards democracy on their own.
That said, it’s not like there isn’t anything at all being done:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_Vladimir_Putin_in_Russia
Protests against Putin have been going on for a long-time, but Navalny’s death has slowed things down somewhat. More openly acts of anti-government terrorism and openly fighting for Ukraine have been happening also:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarusian_and_Russian_partisan_movement_(2022–present)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Organization_of_Anarcho-Communists
These are far braver people than I, god bless and godspeed to them. But also, not something you can expect the average Joe Schmoe to be.
I don’t think we should give them an exception just because their country has gone to shit.
It’s not an exception, it’s the rule. People and governments are almost entirely separate. State is an oppressor of the people that exists to benefit the top 1% and corporations, more often than not it acts in complete opposition to the interests of the people and they have no power to change it, whether it’s outright a military dictatorship, one-party rule (China), practical one-party rule (Japan), two-party system (US), practical two-party system (UK) or otherwise.
It literally is. If it wasn’t a choice you couldn’t choose to become a citizen of a different state.
You can’t choose, you can try to become one but for 99% of people it’s not possible. You are in total ignorance of the realities of immigration. My parents were no oligarchs, but they were definitely really well-off, and if not for that I’d never have immigrated.
Not to mention:
Your initial citizenship isn’t a choice
doesn’t mean you can’t choose a different sex as you grow older.
Yeah, but it also is a helluva undertaking. Transitioning fully takes 10+ years easily in practice and either being very lucky and living in a country with nationalised healthcare and having the patience of a saint to not only wait the eternal waitlists but also fight through both the incompetence, the lack of understanding and outright malice or have tens of thousands of dollars burning a hole in your pocket.
It’s actually why people don’t actually choose to do it. It’s a hassle. In practice, you need to be motivated by something very hardcore, like a disorder that causes ever-present severe mental pain for instance - like Gender Dysphoria - to be able to see it through.
I started 9 years ago, and only just had SRS a few months back, and I still have all the legal shit ahead of me too. There are ways I could’ve optimized it, but hindsight is 20/20, and after countless nights wondering if I could’ve done it earlier and faster, the answer is yes, but only slightly so, or if I was simply orders of magnitude more rich, and not a semi-broke uni student for most of it.
When it comes to immigrating from somewhere like Russia to somewhere like the US or UK, even on top of the 10 years and enormous amounts of luck, talent and constant effort (education, job searching is 10x harder) the monetary figure gets up to hundreds of thousands of dollars easily.
Or should I blame my diarrhea on you?
No, but you should be a pragmatist and understand that it’s not realistic to suggest people never get takeaway at all, because it’s for instance - unhealthy - which is true in many cases.
People smoke, do drugs, drink alcohol and eat sugary foods despite all that, and self-control is kind of a myth, it has a lot more to do with one’s circumstances than oneself. E.g. for someone who’s only source of happiness in a dreary day is a bottle of a beer, it’s gonna be a lot harder to stop than for someone who didn’t care that much for it in the first place because they’re rich and their life is not very stressful.
The “don’t be poor” part of ILR is kinda stupid so if it’s that I get it
That part is a non-issue, because if you’re smart, self-disciplined and patient enough to get a skilled worker job in the first place and your job salary qualifies for the skilled worker visa by salary requirements then you won’t have any problems saving the £3k+. Compared to like 4 years of university at what, £14k a year, it’s barely anything.
have been regularly traveling in and out of the UK.
That was it for me. But I visited my parents for summer holidays when I was a literal child, long before I understood that Russia was not a place I wanted to be or the politics of it all, nevermind intricacies of immigration rules that would only concern me over a decade later, and it’s not like I had anywhere to live in the UK outside the boarding school.
Out of all my peers from that school that wanted to stay, I’m the only one that’s made it anywhere close, the others all have years to go for the same sorts of reasons.
And my point is that while getting a citizenship can be difficult, it is not impossible.
And I disagree. For most, it’s an impossibility. My childhood friends in Russia didn’t want to stay in Russia either, but being working class kids, they were lucky to even have a hacked PSP. Studying at some international boarding school is the only realistic route unless you’re exceedingly lucky and extremely talented and it requires being very well off.
In general a lot of your rhetoric speaks to a meritocratic, individualistic and christian-work-ethic capitalist mindset, which can be a good thing, people should try their best and work hard, and I did, but ultimately I only had the opportunity to because of my environment. It’s good to be conscious of such things as well.
As such nationality in international law can be called and understood as citizenship,[35] or more generally as subject or belonging to a sovereign state, and not as ethnicity.
Yeah, “belonging to a sovereign state” is just citizenship or “origin” in cases where no clear citizenship can be established.
When I tear up my Russian passport and burn it, I will no longer be subject to Russian laws, e.g. conscription, and instead be a subject of the British state in the eyes of the law.
Directly responsible? No. Indirectly? Yes. It’s like people have no fucking clue what a country is. It doesn’t just prop up out of nowhere. Someone somewhere defined a country and when it comes to democracies (even dysfunctional ones like Russia and the US) the people set up the country for themselves.
Please tell me you’re not this naive, or you’re not yet 18. This is not what countries are or how they came about, and the rest of your argument falls apart as a consequence of that. Please read up on the colonialist and early industrial periods (and prior too if you can).
There are recorded stories of people living within nation-states that didn’t even know they did, or what the identity of it was or where/when it started and ended.
Even today, while not a nation state, many (not all, of course) Brits voting for Brexit didn’t fully understand what the EU even was really, or who it included. Heck, I couldn’t name you every EU country off the top of my head, and I’m a big Europe simp.
Also, the dysfunctions of the US democracy are simply incomparable to Russian “democracy”, no matter how bad gerrymandering and electron denialism is, the fact that such things even need exist at all is the very proof of that.
If they’re not responsible then who is responsible for the US supporting Israel? The politicians? Who votes the politicians in power? The people. The Lobbyists? The lobbyists lobby to politicians and the politicians get chosen by the people. The masses being stupid and easy to manipulate is a different topic, but it doesn’t change that despite collectively making bad decisions the people are making those decisions.
Okay. I give you two options:
A) Shoot yourself with a shotgun B) Shoot yourself with a pistol
But if you shoot yourself, it’s a bed you made? That’s absurd. States give people a voice, there is no political model in existence that would actually allow the people to become the nation-state itself, for many reasons, including the fact it would be an absolute clusterfuck.
Even anarchist communes would have to have elected representatives to interact with each other and experts to elect to leave some decisions to on for instance, medical or climate policy, which would become a pseudo-state administration, and it’s inevitable that such people have their own agendas as everyone does that would become divorced from the people, the role of representation (democracy, consensus, e.g.) in such a political system is to provide a check and a balance on it.
In western nations voters are a key to power yes, but only one of many, and hardly the most important one.
You may want to run for president for instance, and given the choice, people might vote for you a 100% and you may be the best president the US ever had, but you’ll never be given that opportunity, plain and simple.
There’s a lot more I could go into, but I’ll leave it up to you to look more deeply into civics. Do it for yourself and for me, I’ve already fled one undemocratic shithole, please do not turn the west into a repressive populist junta and learn more about civics and history, thanks xoxo :)
