Removed by mod
If they wipe out Gaza that’s 2.2million people to be “clear cut”. That’s not a good look no matter how much good PR a side has
Honestly the question is would anybody care enough to do something about it? I see headlines everyday finger wagging at bigwigs all across the world but nothing actually gets done to them.
If history is the guide, no one will intervene in the depopulation of a well armed country until the antagonist country makes international war.
Removed by mod
There are 6 million people in Israel, of that about 2 million is Israel Palestinian.
There are a about 6 million people in Palestinian.
If Israel won’t let Palestine be a independent country, then the 4 million Isrealies and the 8 million Palestinians need to integrate and come to some South African truth and reconciliation level of cultural assimilation.
Not letting people be independent but making them second class citizens will never see a end to violence.
Removed by mod
At the moment there is so much bad blood that I don’t think that the current generation can reach a truce. It doesn’t also help that neither of the sides is ready to make any concessions and without concessions long lasting peace would never be achieved.
Removed by mod
They’ve been murdering Palestinians for decades already. And nobody gave a shit, why would they start now?
Now wipe out Hamas, that’s something I could get behind. All the best for the rest of Palestine.
edit: and someone actually downvoted me for not supporting child murdering terrorists. World’s gone to shit.
What Hamas did requires a response from Israel, and no amount of “truce now, k?” will be work. It’s sad, but the only course for Israel is to hit back, and hard. Anything less would be bending over and showing Hamas can do this again.
In other words, you can’t stab a person, and then go “whoa stahp” when the bleeding guy pulls a bigger gun on you.
Bystanderd will be hurt, but I hope it will be over quick and afterwards there can be a path towards something better.
Before you engage with what I said, be sure to read up on https://lemmy.world/comment/4385358
I wish Hamas could be eradicated, it would be the single best step for Palestine, and not far behind, Israel and the rest of the world.
I’m not expecting a clear cut, what I’m expecting is the annexation of the western edge of Gaza to gain effective control over all points of entry to be able to raise siege whenever they decide Gaza is being a problem.
After enough sieges trading in Gaza will become so costly just from risk assessment of having goods seized by the IDF that Gaza will have nothing left but the fish they’re able to get out of the Mediterranean. Anyone sending them weapons would be doing so at significant loss, and while running the risk of being put on international blast whenever they get caught.
Yeah having a slave labor force for manual labor has been pretty useful and I’m sure Israel isn’t in a rush to completely get rid of that.
Hamas has a lot of hostages now, including some high value ones from the IDF. They also severely humiliated the Israeli military and intelligence apparatus, reminding the world that Israel is not invulnerable and demonstrating that Hamas is a more formidable force than ever, which will help them get more international support. I think Hamas is in a strong position to secure concessions from Israel.
Removed by mod
The Netanyahu government famously traded over one thousand Palestinian prisoners, including some lifers, for a single live IDF soldier. There have also been significant trades just for captured remains. So, the precedent is that Israel will pay a big price to get its people back.
I suppose there is a non-zero chance that Israel decides to forsake the hostages, but I think the political cost would be too high. Also, that would really hurt IDF morale and discipline if there’s suddenly a new policy that they won’t negotiate your release if you get captured.
Something else to consider is that maybe Gaza kind of serves as a perpetual crisis that helps the Israeli hardliners maintain their grip on power. They might still want to keep it around.
You’d be quite wrong to think that.
Oh wow thank you for the detailed analysis.
A senior Hamas official said the group is open to discussions over a possible truce with Israel, having “achieved its targets.”
Yep, Hamas managed to entrench both sides in their fucking atrocity competition, so Hamas and the Israeli right-wing can both hang onto power by the fear and hatred stirred in their populations. Great. Same time again next year?
Fucking scumsuckers.
After what happened, I don’t think Israel is going to allow Hamas to hang on to power. They are not going to allow Gaza to ever again be in a position to attack Israeli citizens, and that’s going to come at the cost of a lot of innocent Palestinians.
Sounds just like Putin saying they’re open to talks.
Real Putin energy here.
Removed by mod
They’ve been living under an Israeli siege for over a decade and had a mature enough intelligence apparatus to plan a highly coordinated assault while living in a surveillance state… If you don’t think this wasn’t a calculated informed attack you’ve got your head up your ass.
I’m not condoning indiscriminate killing and rape of civilians and taking hostages, I also don’t condone the inhumane siege of Gaza that has been happening for decades. 50% of Gaza is under 18. That’s not because they’re popping out kids, its because you just don’t survive that long in that kind of environment, those are also deaths. Not graphic ones that make headlines, but lives were still lost. Its incredibly hypocritical to assume Israel’s shit don’t stink in this situation either.
I’m also queasy when I read the coverage of the recent attacks by Hamas, I also haven’t been living in a police state. Not saying this is the most effective way that they can achieve their objectives, but I can understand how someone growing up seeing violence, sickness and malnutrition for completely preventable reasons dehumanizes the people they see as being the cause of their situation and join or support an organization like Hamas.
Also, when Palestinians resist against Israel, I’m not sure many people are informed about the differences between what Israel’s actions are and the narrative it gives out. An example would be found in this Haaretz article covering how Israel systematically hides evidence of Arab expulsion.
I do think that Israel should stop its colonization of the West Bank, cease the blockade, and work towards a two state solution. But my sympathy is with the Palestinian people. I have absolutely no sympathy for hamas after what they have done and they deserve what will happen next.
But my sympathy is with the Palestinian people. I have absolutely no sympathy for hamas after what they have done and they deserve what will happen next.
The Israeli government no longer seems to care about the difference between the two.
they deserve what will happen next.
Nothing will change for hamas. Do the Palestinians deserve what’s happening now?
Israel is almost certainly going to overthrow Hamas which seems like something changing
There was a time when there was no wall, no blockade, and work towards two state solution. Do remember that Israelis lived inside of Gaza until 2005. Why do you think they raised the wall in west bank and left Gaza in 2005? They left them to self-govern and they elected Hamas and now you think removing walls is going to help solve the issue? What a naive way of thinking.
This is not “you are taking our land” issue, this is “every jew must die” issue to them.
I have sympathy for the Palestinian and Israeli civilians that are being murdered by both sides. Since 2008, Israel has killed significantly more Palestinians than vice versa https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties, 6,000 Palestinian deaths to 300 Israeli deaths.
It’s the “deserve” part of your comment that I’m having trouble with reconciling when the amount of deaths and violent oppression has been so unbalanced against Palestinians. Yeah, Hamas needs to face consequences, but that’s not really what’s happening or what’s going to be happening. It’s going to be civilians that will suffer the most and Hamas will be fine when it’s all done.
It’s not hard to see, as horrible as Hamas is, how they can get recruits and support for their regime and how this escalated to this point. I don’t support what happened in any way, but I can see how things lead up to this.
And I’ve seen people say that Hamas fucked it up for Palestinians because now they lost the sympathy. Which is hard to not see as flawed when the sympathy hasn’t helped Palestinians for over half a century of violent oppression.
I’ll just leave this here.
I’ve said this before in this same thread but I will say it again: I think Israel needs to end the blockade of Gaza, withdraw from the West Bank, end the settlement policy, and negotiate with the Palestinian authority. But I have no sympathy for Hamas after what they have done and I hope they are completely destroyed as an organization.
Israel has refused to negotiate. Palestinian leadership has tried.
Man people downvoting you cause they literally just want their echo chamber and not facts.
Yeah, I would bet rumors have spread through soldiers trying to one up each other on how terrible Hamas is, but where there is smoke their might be fire.
We took hostages so now you should negotiate rather than genocide the entire Gaza strip.
Yeah, good luck with that.
So you’re saying Israel should glass the entire strip? Ok, got it.
Because collective punishment is totally ok and definitely NOT a war crime.
It’s not going to be a collective punishment. But also there won’t be any negotiation this time. That train has left the station long time ago.
Yup, I do not agree with either side, but I’m pretty sure Israël will be taking the scorched earth approach this time around.
Honestly, I just want this conflict to end. Pragmatically, that seems like the only way to actually end it.
Umm, no.
Is Israel genocides 2 million people, they will draw the ire from the entire Arab world and anyone with a shred of decency.
That would literally be on par with the holocaust.
Not if they give an evaluation warning a few weeks ahead of time
Sure. They would have to do that though and also ensure those in Gaza have the means to evacuate.
They’re threatening to starve Gaza into submission.
It’s not going to be a collective punishment.
What do you think it will be?
Removed by mod
LMAO come on, guess they didn’t expect the IDF to fight back 🤷🏽
Taking a shit in the public water supply, getting roughed up as people demand to know why you just shat in the only watersource, and then you tell them to chill and that you “got your point across” lmao.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Yeah sorry Hamas, no takesy backsies when you just murdered a bunch of civilians at a peace festival.
It’s like your brother just stole your favourite toy and then he’s like “ok now we can have a truce”.
Removed by mod
Atrocity propaganda, the journalist tweeted that they overheard that from a soldiers conversation and reported it as fact.
No evidence yet it is true.
Huh, yeah looking into it, it seems like a rumor for now.
Might be something with a grain of truth but right now there is bodies, and they are starting to pile up fast enough we can’t count how many there were at the beginning. It’s amazing how quickly this has escalated into what people wanted anyway.
Except the toy was yours to begin with and your brother has been rubbing the fact he was able to steal it with outside support in your face while actively stealing more of your toys and you finally stood up and took it back from him.
Don’t commit genocide if you don’t want your own people genocided
It is so much more complicated than that. Both sides have done horrible things, but this last provocation was completely offside.
I wonder what other major event happened in the early 40’s? That also was Palestine the territory of Egypt and Jordan, not an independent Palestian state.
Misleading on purpose perhaps?
Again, it is so much more complicated than it appears.
Ah, so it “being complicated” means it’s ok for Israel to continue to steal land from the Palestinians. Gotcha.
Edit: and bomb refugee camps.
No evidence of 250 dead. Only videos of people running away and Israeli eye witnesses saying resistance fighters were kind to them.
Nice atrocity propaganda though.
Hamas fucked around, is finding out, and want to talk “truce?” What does a truce with a bunch of genocidal terrorists look like?
Not carpet bombing the Gaza strip, where 2 and a half million palestinians live I’d imagine.
If Israel was carpet bombing the Gaza Strip, we wouldn’t see hundreds dead. We would see hundreds of thousands dead.
Fair enough. They seem poised to try their best, I truly hope the situation de escalates and actual solutions are sought after.
That all depends on whether Hamas starts executing hostages and uploading the videos to the internet, like they’re threatening
Good question, should ask Israel the same thing.
Hamas fucked around and innocent arab palestinians are finding out.
Well, Hamas is who those innocent Palestinians chose to be their government
Some did. They don’t exactly hold elections, though.
Last time they did, Hamas won
My worry isn’t really the voters that were enfranchised then, ya know? It’s gonna be mothers with bloody infants that fuck me up. Or young men pressed into ‘service’. Or really any young casualties.
Then they should probably do something about Hamas.
I’ll donate an infant sized rifle.
I think he mean in the sense of hostage negotiations.
Practically speaking he’s right, Hamas got what they wanted by doing a day of raids for some bullet spray kills, a few IDF outposts, and taking hostages for negotiating power.
Whether or not Israel will actually decide to negotiate for anything is another thing lol.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure they’re way past the line.
Lol no way; Hamas needs to be wiped out completely. They can never, ever, be trusted and will just do this shit again in the future.
But Israel is allowed to murder men, women and children and steal homes, land for decades right?
Hypocrisy at its finest.
Yeah, what Hamas did is entirely wrong but don’t forget that Israel been oppressing Palestinians for decades.
Hypocrisy at its finest.
Nope. I don’t support Israel doing that either. However, Hamas will never tolerate peace. They will never allow a 2-state compromise; they want Israel completely gone. And Israel is allowed to defend it’s borders. There is no happy ending here for anyone.
The right-wing party in Israel (the party currently in control even after losing multiple elections) will also never support peaceful co-existence. They will never allow a real two state solution where the other state has control over its borders, air, water, import rights, etc. They want Palestine completely gone, and in fact Bibi was just at the UN arguing that Israel already has complete control and ownership over the Palestinian territories. Palestine is allowed to defend against the longest running occupation in history. There is no happy ending here as long as the Israeli boot is on the Palestinian neck.
Unfortunately for Palestine, Israel will win.
They already have total military control. What does win mean?
Relocate the population from the Gaza strip to the West Bank?
Birth control in the water supply, so the population slowly ages out?
Internment camps for all military aged men?
It will likely mean leveling Gaza to the ground and telling its residents to find somewhere else to live without giving them support. It won’t be pleasant for anyone.
The Gaza strip is within Israel’s borders. They hold direct power over whether the people who live there have electricity water and food.
Israel is not defending itself. They are using hamas attacks as a pretext to commit mass violence on Palestinians.
Of course Israel is defending itself against a homicidal organization. The fact it’s in Israel’s borders is irrelevant.
Its very relevant. Is depriving all 2 and a half million palestinians of food water and electricity self defense? Is bombing palestinian homes an act of self defense? Is depriving palestinians of human rights an act of self defense?
Self defense is not murdering innocent people. It never is no matter what. They’re using the attack from hamas as a pretext to commit mass acts of violence against innocent Palestinians.
Maybe I’m ignorant, but isn’t hammas a terrorist group? If so fuck them, but keep Palestine alone.
Hamas is a response to a repressive Israeli regime. Even if you “wipe out” Hamas, another group will just fill its place.
It’s not a matter of just getting rid of the “bad guys” and hoping the forces of good win the day… It requires a monumental shift not only in the treatment of the Palestinians, but in the entire political structure of the area. Which is neither happening easily nor quickly. And sadly, there’s not a whole lot we can do to help the situation.
The Palestinian people have to see a better option than extremist violence. People will take what they think is their best incentive. If they have no hope, if they feel like they have no representation, then they choose violence. So we have to give the people a better option than Hamas
deleted by creator
Sure. What you say is true. Everyone responds to their incentives.
There is a asymmetry in this scenario though, the Israeli government has 100% military control over the entire country.
I don’t know the solution to the scenario, but if we keep repeating previous patterns, we’re going to get previous outcomes.
deleted by creator
I don’t know if you know this but Hamas is controlling the administration of the Gaza Strip. They are a terrorist organisation but also the de facto local government.
Ok, but destroying Gaza and killing all the inhabitants is still genocide and a war crime.
Hamas really killed themselves with their murders, Israels response will be brutal and long. But they will not kill “everyone” as you say, they are bombing Hamas targets and many of them are located in civilian spots. It will not stop Israel after these terror attacks and everyone knew this beforehand. Israels actions before have been exactly the same.
Hopefully Hamas will be completely eradicated and the Palestinians will reject these fascist leaders from now on, for betraying their trust and leading their people to even more suffering.
It is all just tragic and awful.
Majority of Palenstinians support Hamas.
I have lived through terrorism. They will kill anyone who is brave enough to spose them, and the rest are too afraid of speaking out from retaliation, Hamas is no different.
deleted by creator
I mean yeah it’d be great if you could just do that. But how would you? And more importantly, how is the state of Israel proposing to get rid of Hamas? What actions are they taking right now with that aim? They’re bombing palestinians. Just random indiscriminate bombing. How exactly would that eliminate Hamas? Their plan is just to kill as many palestinians as they can, Netanyahu has said himself he plans to “turn Gaza into a desert island” and his defense minister has said “our enemies are human animals”. It’s plain as day what they plan to do.
Yes I’m aware of what Israel is doing. No, I don’t know of any better ways to get rid of Hamas.
At least you’re honest. I don’t see mass murder of innocent Palestinian men women and children as acceptable as a kind of attack on Hamas. Palestinians have as much right to life as Israelis do, and we should be as outraged at their senseless deaths as we have been about the festival goers.
deleted by creator
Wipe them away. Fucking monsters.
Have you seen the videos of abducted children in cages? Hamas must be removed.
Have you seen the video of the American dude from NY going to Palestine and stealing a Palestinian’s house?
Have you seen my glasses?
Same, but the IDF
Exchange prisoners for Hamas leaders, make Hamas say outright that they see Palestinian lives as lesser than their own.
If they actually have enough spine to take the deal, start a whole new Nuremberg trial and purge everyone down to the “just following orders” grunts and rebuild from there.
Revisionist history: https://www.cnn.com/2011/10/17/world/meast/israel-prisoner-swap-explainer/index.html
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Oct 9 (Reuters) - A senior Hamas official said the group is open to discussions over a possible truce with Israel, having “achieved its targets.”
Moussa Abu Marzouk told Al Jazeera in a phone interview that Hamas was open to “something of that sort” and “all political dialogues” when asked whether the Islamist group is willing to discuss a possible ceasefire.
The original article contains 61 words, the summary contains 61 words. Saved 0%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
0%. Bad bot.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Oct 9 (Reuters) - A senior said Israel achieved its targets in a phone interview.
The original article contains 61 words, the summary contains 11 words. Saved 82%. I’m not a bot and I’m closed source!
Normally I find this bot terrible, but in this case, the source is so tiny there isn’t much for it to do.
Let’s try this conversation again in 2 weeks.
