Surrender and nothing. Surrender and live in 1/6th of the land you used to have with far fewer resources.
Unfortunately, I think that keeping up resistance against Israel and forcing them to do what they’re doing as loudly as possible is the best option they’ve got.
Gaza is only an “open air prison” because it’s controlled by a jihadist organization fixated on a religious genocidal fantasy and willing to commit funds, resources and civilians’ lives towards it. Its’ crucial to remember that Gaza borders Egypt as well. The Israeli and Egyptian blockade of Gaza is a legal, defensive measure taken as a result of Hamas’ intentions, threats and violence, not the other way around. Israel left Gaza in 2005 withdrawing all civilians and military, and is met with hostility and violence from the territory ever since. Leaving Gaza unchecked while Hamas operates it as a terror-state would only bring about exacerbated violence and death.
Now tell me how many of those people are dependent on international aid to survive, and how many are malnourished. And while you’re at it how many of them need medicine that they can’t get because of the blockade and have to use the tunnels, if they can get it at all.
Edit: And oh I forgot: How many of them lost family members or their homes to Israeli airstrikes.
What did Hamas do to help these people with all the humanitarian Qatari money it received? What does Hamas do now with the fuel and humanitarian aid it receives ?
It built tunnels, rockets to massacre and kill in it’s one goal, to completely drive the last of the Jews from the land. It lives underground while people above ground live in hell.
It’s sad what happened and continues to happen to the people of Gaza. I wish they will overthrow the terrible organization that rules them and start using the aid money for good
What are they supposed to do? Gaza is only allowed to buy things Israel allows them to buy, only allowed to sell things Israel allows them to sell (or does it just not allow them to export their products? I’m not sure). No government can function under these conditions. Hence the international aid, that surprise surprise Israel also limits. We can blame Hamas’s domestic policy all we want, but under these conditions they never had a chance. Gaza just doesn’t have the resources to survive without contact with the outside world.
I spent a year living in Israel during the Second Intifada, studying the conflict and talking to everyone I could, Jew, Arab, etc. I do a pretty good impression of a constipated Ariel Sharon giving a speech, “Anaaacchnu tzrichim [labored grunting] bitachon b’Israel v’hakol olam!”
You have a well-informed and factual view of the situation. Must be because you are an Israeli ex-pat and (let me guess) are secular. It’s disheartening to see propaganda-fueled idiots who have zero idea what they are talking about arguing with you–who wants reform in Israel–all because they have a black-and-white view of right and wrong, see Islam as “the underdog” that is therefore allowed to commit atrocities, and had hiphop artists telling them to “free Palestine” since 1995.
They should’ve just asked the guards nicely and maybe they would’ve opened up the gates of Auschwitz but these darned resistances just didn’t want to stop.
Again, Gaza is no prison. It has a border with Israel and also with Egypt. Before the Oct 7th massacre Gazans were crossing to Israel for work every day.
They’d probably need to give them equal rights and not be an apartheid state, too, and stop kicking people out of their homes. But once all that happened, the violence would probably be greatly reduced. The same thing happened with the Ira in the UK, their attacks stopped once they negotiated.
so, all Hamas needs to do is surrender and give up all their weapons and Israel will go back to the relationship before Hamas?
the relationship defined by occupation, fences, and a systematic annexation of Palestinian land.
you make the mistake of not knowing history, they tried it for over 45 years with negotiation, the ONLY time Israel backed out of any region was due to military force, so, why should they assume it to be any different this time?
You are right. I’m don’t know the history of this conflict enough to have an informed discussion about it. My comment was more wishful thinking than any founded opinion. It’s just that all alternative scenarios are much more terrible than this one.
I actually do know the history of the region which is why arguing with someone like you who seems to live in a fantasy world where Hamas, the peace seekers (and all round good guys) tried to get Israel out of their (?) land by negotiation.
The constant bombings, missile attacks and three all out invasions of Israel (for genocide) never happened and Hamas and their precursors were just trying logic and reason the whole time 😂
Wtf are you talking about? The straw manning is crazy. They never said Hamas was the good guys in that comment or that they tried to get land through negotiation. They were talking about the relationship with Palestine before Hamas. Hamas was a result of the failures of those negotiations.
If you oppress people and take their land without a peaceful resolution, of course a violent, terrorist group will result. We’ve seen it in other countries, too, from the IRA in the UK to the ANC in South Africa and the BLA in the United States. If Hamas were to disappear an equivalent is just going to appear again without the underlying conditions that caused them to be created being solved, or without full ethnic cleansing, which is obviously the route Israel would prefer.
So, you have an issue with time, ok there is this concept of “before” and the concept of “after”, now before Hamas even existed, Israel was literally straight up occupying Gaza, afterward Israel only blockaded them.
And yes, it is their land, the same way that India isn’t British land, Ukraine isn’t Russian, Brazil isn’t Portuguese, etc., etc., etc…
Now no one said that Hamas was the “good guys”, but the assertion that Israel is, is comical, at best
Also, the Genocide thing is a bit far stretched, and requires an interpretation that would make Israel just as, if not more, genocidal.
And yes, if the only way you have ever been able to gain anything was through violence, why wouldn’t you choose violence? because it hurts your feefees that a white person had to die? meanwhile, the not-violent west bank gets to watch as soldiers who bravely kill children are awarded with medals.
Lol you gave me a good laugh with this and I lost it when you said ‘the genocide thing is a bit stretched’.
I think most Iranian officials start their morning by saying ‘What a nice day to kill all Jews!’
Hamas was even crazy enough to put ‘kill the Jews’ in their original manifesto.
The difference here is that as hard as you Hamas ball fondlers try to spin it otherwise, if Hamas surrenders and let’s the hostages go, Israel will in turn end the war and the killing stopped. The other choice is that Israel stops fighting in which case the Palestinians and pals will do exactly what they’ve said they want to do - commit genocide.
ok, you have officially gone into the territory of “my enemy is literally worse than Satan”.
also, so what? The AFU put kill the Boer in their manifesto.
And lastly, you show how fucking little you actually know about any of this, or how little you care, because the one thing that sentence was right on is committing genocide, because to the Netanyahu government it was never about the hostages, and they have already declared that this war will continue until they are sure that every last member of Hamas is dead.
Now, how do you do that to an insurgency without genocide is anybody’s guess.
I think you are conflating between Gaza and the West Bank. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. No occupation, no fences (other than a border) and no annexation of land
Due to the massive amounts of undue power the blockade gives Israel over Gazans’ lives, many organizations (including the UN) consider Gaza still under Israeli occupation.
Speaking as an Egyptian, Egypt is mostly doing it for American aid. That said, the Egyptian government (Arab leaders generally are, but Egypt even more so) is a traitor to the Arab and Muslim people, and an accomplice to Israel’s crime against humanity. Ayone involved in the blockade on Egypt’s end (and Israel’s, but doubly so for Egypt’s) out of their own will should be hanged.
You sound like a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Take your Coptic Christian harassing, LGBTQ-hating, tourist attacking butt out of here. Egypt is doing it because they don’t want Palestinians waging war inside Egypt’s sovereign territory. The Egyptian government is so brutal because the people you support want a freaking Caliphate. Egypt is for Egyptians, not just Arabs and Muslims. Go fly a kite.
I think looking solely at the American aid angle is too narrow of a view. Hamas are Muslim brotherhood, not exactly friends of the regime. Probably hate Hamas more than they hate the Israelis
by UN definition, what Israel is doing in Gaza is still an occupation, the IDF has cut every single route out, even going as far as to patrol a 1km wide strip on the border of Egypt and Gaza for years, why do you think the Gaza-Egypte supplies (like the WMD that is KFC or an old car) are all transported via kilometers long tunnels?
At which point do you believe that Hamas will disarm its arsenal of rockets firing regularly at Israel ? What would need to happen for Hamas to do that you think ?
we could start with not shooting anyone the snipers on the border can see, maybe lift the blockade, stop trying to starve them out (most Gazans don’t even reach 40 due to malnutrition and IDF “grass cutting”), maybe don’t limit them to 4 days of water a week, let them rebuild and operate their own power plant again, stopping IDF supported Pogroms in the west bank (yes the very same the occupied the IDF as Hamas attacked), stopping the illegal settlements, actually allow for a 2-state solution where Israel doesn’t control all the water etc…
The list is long, it won’t happen overnight, but such is the bed that the Israeli government has made.
But don’t worry, they are going with the genocide route, because the Zionists in Israel are mainly not the survivors of the holocaust, but fervent nationalists so far removed from the horrors of the Nazi regime, that they openly mock holocaust survivors, and completely disregard those who got shipped off to gulags by the Russians and/or couldn’t move to Israel before 1953 (because any of them that came after 1953 aren’t real Jews to begin with)
A lot of what you said is just factually incorrect. Putting the west bank aside and focusing on Gaza, there was no humanitarian crisis before October 7 and there are no settlements in Gaza. The “snipers at the border” were not so effective on the day of October 7th when Hamas broke into Israel and massacred women and children. Hamas did not go into settlements in the west bank. It went into regular villages and cities and did what it did.
And that last part about the mocking of Holocaust survivors, not sure where you get that from
Israel withdrew from Gaza long time ago and was not occupying Gaza before Oct 7 when Hamas decided to declare war on it by massacring and kidnapping Israeli civilians.
Ah yes, the same talking point repeated over and over again. Next time try to use your brain instead of repeating the same line:
Despite the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza,[15] the United Nations, international human rights organisations, and the majority of governments and legal commentators consider the territory to be still occupied by Israel, supported by additional restrictions placed on Gaza by Egypt.[100] Israel maintains direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza: it controls Gaza’s air and maritime space, as well as six of Gaza’s seven land crossings. It reserves the right to enter Gaza at will with its military and maintains a no-go buffer zone within the Gaza territory. Gaza is dependent on Israel for water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[15] The extensive Israeli buffer zone within the Strip renders much land off-limits to Gaza’s inhabitants.[101] The system of control imposed by Israel was described in the fall 2012 edition of International Security as an “indirect occupation”.
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip
Or are you trying to convince me that Gaza is a paradise on earth? Why do you think those tunnels exists at the first place? Have you heard of freedom of movement? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement. How would you feel if you are not allowed to leave 41sq. km, don’t have a single functioning airport, you can’t even use the territorial waters, because they are also controlled by Israel, and your whole economy is heavily restricted. But yes, continue repeating yourself that Israel is a spotless angel who don’t have anything to do with the events from the 7th of October.
Don’t forget filled with the constant sound of drones to the point people can’t sleep or study, a majority of their water isn’t drinkable, they don’t control their own trash, and they restricted the amount of calories into their to be the bare minimum at one point.
The tunnels are built to provide strategic advantage over Israeli military superiority. Also to smuggle equipment for rockets which Hamas has plenty of and uses them regularly.
Ordinary Gazans do not get to use the tunnels to hide and stay alive. They are needed as human shields instead.
Israel is far from being a spotless angel. Nothing in life is black and white like that. But Hamas started this one. And Israel cannot live with an organization that kidnaps, rapes and beheads people on its border
Yes, then why don’t you go and live there for half a year to see how much you are going to like it. These tunnels were first built to smuggle normal goods in and out of Gaza, and they were the reaction of the restrictions imposed by Israel of their freedom of movement.
For this conflict to really end both sides need to do some concessions and most importantly Israel should grant some basic human rights and freedom and ensure that perpetrators of the new order would be equally persecuted by law enforcement. What I see right now is that Israel is building even more checkpoints in the West bank, approving the building of new neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem and granting impunity to violent settlers. arresting Palestinians and keeping them in prisons without effective sentence and even when they are put into court, they are tried in a military court and not civil. Relatives of Palestinian prisoners can’t even visit them and there are a lot of reports of prisoner officers exerting physical and psychological harassment of those prisoners.
So tell me honestly, if you were on the other side of the barricade, how would you feel? Would you tolerate being treated like cattle and still be happy?
And honestly speaking I don’t see any political will in Israel to change the current status quo? They don’t want to make any concessions or start treating those people decently. How many times in interviews did Israeli politicians show any will for a two-states solution? And mind you the overwhelming opinion of the international community is that the only viable solution leading to a long lasting peace is a two state solution base on equal treatment of people and mutual respect. And Netanyahu’s reply is what exactly? Arming settlers, building even more checkpoints to restrict their freedom of movement in the West bank, arresting even more Palestinians and talking of another military occupation of Gaza and building of another buffer zone from inside Gaza.
So explain to me how is this fair and do you think it would improve the prospects of long lasting peace in the region? It is almost like Likud and the far right parties are using the current conflict for even more polarising of the Israeli society and land grab.
I agree with your analysis of Israel. I don’t see much hope for change there, unfortunately and looks like this sentiment will only grow stronger from now on. However the discussion was around Hamas specifically. They don’t want to live in peace alongside Israel. They completely deny the concept of Israel and will not stop until the last Jew is driven out. Can’t justify that either
You can’t kill an idea, you can replace it with a better alternative, and Hamas is an idea, like an ideological movement that is summarising the general discontent of Palestinian population with the current status quo. Every human being wants to live in peace and prosperity. Politics and religion is usually dividing people.
My point is that this war even if it manages to kill a big chunk of the military wing of Hamas and destroy their weapons, won’t kill the idea and will do quite the opposite by strengthening the resolve of people to continue opposing Israel and support Hamas.
Funnily enough Hamas needs Likud and the other far right factions in the Israelian government to flourish and vice versa. They have formed a symbiotic relationship even though officially they are mortal enemies. But if Israel and Palestine manage to find a recipe for a long standing peace based on equal terms, then Likud and the other far right factions and the terrorist organisations in Palestine will lose a big chunk of their support.
Sadly, I don’t see this happening anytime soon as both parts are already too invested in the current bloodshed. And considering that Israel is a “democratic” country with a far superior military power one is logically expecting that they should be the initiator of a peace process that will try to mend the wounds from the current war. What I am currently seeing is zero interest from Israel to do something like this.
Unfortunately everything you said about israel is true, as an (expat) Israeli I see the current conflict only drives us further from any solution and more bloodshed in the future is almost certain.
Regarding Hamas, it’s a fundamentalist jihadistic group that will not stop until the complete annihilation of all the Jews, with that I’m certain as they are saying exactly that. However they can be overthrown, that is what this war is about. Who will replace them ? No idea. Might be even worse…
There are many good people on both ends that want to live in peace. Unfortunately the leadership is bad, driven by extremists and the politics are horrible (at least on Israel’s side, don’t know much about PA)
Children means anyone up to age 19. The US has plenty examples of “children” in that age group committing school shootings. It just happens that in the PA, they’re taught to “go stab a jew” in schools instead.
ah, yes, America, the shining example of how to respect human rights.
In Israel, children are abducted for something as small as throwing a rock at a hmmwv and detained without trial for decades. but tell me more about how israel is actually right.
ah yes, the old “palestinians want to kill all the jews” line, just so killing all the palestinians can be justified. do you have any sources for your claims that doesn’t come directly from the propaganda machine that is the zionist state?
Also, even if wanting Hamas to surrender is just “wanting terrorism to end”, Hamas surrendering would be the biggest catastrophe to befall the Palestinian people since the Nakba. Israel will, at the very least, make Gaza like the West Bank, likely worse. They’ve already stated they want security control over Gaza, and we all know what that means.
Hamas doesn’t give two shits about the Palestinians under their control. How does being governed by a country that cares for human life worse than being ruled with fear by a terrorist organization that values killing Jews more than your own life?
That’s complete bullshit. Israel’s intense care for the lives of their citizens is how we ended up here. In fact if the iron dome wasn’t developed, we’d have gotten to this point even sooner, because protecting Israeli citizens (yes, that includes the Arab citizens as well) is Israel’s #1 priority.
their blatant disregard for human life and human rights begs to differ. hell, there are reports that top brass of the israeli government knew about the attack on october 7 beforehand and allowed it to happen, so they could use it as justification for bombing the shit out of Gaza.
I’m happy we’re in a time and place where you get downvoted for wanting Gazans to go back to the pre-war status quo without even freeing their people behind Israeli bars, let alone surrender to Israel and get the West Bank treatment.
I was gonna explain a lot of things, but after seeing your second sentence yeah that’s pointless. I’ll just mention that the UN already condemned Israel for war crimes in Gaza. Israel’s response is neither legal nor required for anything except to keep their brutal occupation going.
At this point you’re nothing better than a terrorist shill. I’ve been seeing your comments for the last week here. You’ve said nothing but misinformation the entire time.
Uh… The blockade is an act of war. Israel has been doing that since 2005 (and has been occupying Gaza and the West Bank since 1967), proving they’re unable to safely coexist in the region. History extends beyond October 7th.
to be fair, the west bank doesn’t have Hamas, and the entire reason Hamas was so successful is that the army had to go guard the Pogrom against the Arabs in the west bank, so how’s that non-Hamas stuff working out?
The only people protecting Gazans now are Hamas in the absence of the secritiy council and whatever power it has. Ironic, sad, but true.
October 7th was wrong, but what would be even more wrong now is to abandon all those Gazans and stop fighting all those Israeli tanks shelling everyone’s home.
If you actually gave two shits about the Palestinians you’d be calling for Hamas to surrender, release the hostages so this war can end.
Israel won’t abandon their hostages which is obviously why Hamas took them to force this war.
No point arguing with a propagandist like yourself though…have you noticed that public opinion is shifting against Hamas? Better get even more hysterical mate! 😂
Israel doesn’t care about their citizens, they’re carpet bombing Gaza and flooding tunnels they know the hostages are in. They had the option to just do a hostage exchange since day one. This is some mixture of annexation and Netanyahu trying to hold on to power.
In what universe do you live? Hamas pulled out of the continuing the hostage exchange. Israel wanted women returned but Hamas wouldn’t agree…let’s be honest it’s because all the rape and torture would make their propaganda war tricky
Hamas’s cited reason was that Israel was demanding female soldiers, while the terms of the “pause” dictated the exchange of civilians. It seemed like Israel simply wanted an excuse to continue bombing.
let’s be honest it’s because all the rape and torture would make their propaganda war tricky
Let’s be honest about this having no substantiation at present and being based on Israeli and U.S. State Dept propaganda. Honestly it’s disgusting how quickly people will resort to insinuations like this.
I know! All those raped (verified by Hamas body cam footage) on Oct 7 and people start to think Hamas are going to keep raping the hostages when they get them back to gaza. What a crazy leap right?!
Hamas cares even less for the lives of Gaza civilians. They cowardly hide in their tunnels, take humanitarian supplies by force from the population and shoot at Gazans when they try to escape from their human shield purpose.
All of these crimes have been documented and you can find them online. Hamas is a dictatorship jihadistic organization who controls the population by fear
No, they don’t deserve it. If you were Israel, and 1200 of your people would have been murdered, raped and 400 were taken hostages, what would you do differently?
Not detaining Palestinians in undisclosed locations
Not starving the population
Not bombing hospitals, mosques, and the few fucking churches there.
Negotiate peace with Palestinians and restore their full rights
A one state solution where everyone gets to vote, as they always should have been allowed to
What would you do “differently” since those Gazans don’t deserve to die in a crowded hospital after a failing amputation attempt because there are no meds and Israel is shelling outside?
Btw I just want to say that 17 thousand of my “people” have already been killed by Israel since I’m Palestinian.
Airstrikes don’t affect underground tunnels where Hamas hides with all the humanitarian supplies and fuel along with the precious hostages while the less privileged Gazans suffer above
damn, you really believe that, don’t you?like the massive supply bunkers below the hospital?, the hospital that they had laid siege to for days before storming it, meaning that Hamas should have not been able to get anything out, and the greatest horror was a few guns, a diaper, and a bomb shelter that Israel put in when they built the building, full of jack shit.
Every Palestinian in Gaza knows they are using hospitals, mosques, schools to conduct their military operation from there.
Have you seen them wearing uniforms in their videos?
This is no secret, it’s playbook assymetric warfare tactic I honestly don’t understand the denial about it.
Do you expect them to have some military base with a helicopter landing so Israel can bomb it in a second?
Damn, imagine wounded combatants being treated at hospitals, of course you happen to forget that Hamas doesn’t even have a uniform, nor that it’s still a war crime to attack hospitals.
The justification of Israel to bomb hospitals always shows the building its self full of tunnels and storing red exploding barrels. because anything less than that is a war crime…
the only person in denial about anything here is you and the Geneva convention.
They most definitely have uniforms, they just don’t use them when fighting Israel as they are embedded inside civilians.
And they most definitely hide and attack from schools, mosques and hospitals.
Correction: Some individual actions taken on October 7th (with no evidence they were Hamas policy) were wrong. October 7th as a whole was resistance against a foreign occupier, which is allowed under international law.
Wow this is a very delusional take. Hamas didn’t rampage into the “Settlements” of land that has been taken, they went deep into Israel. And I don’t think international law allows you to kill or capture civilians or children and hold them for ransom.
They didn’t hold them for ransom. They demanded the release of Palestinian prisoners in Israel, which Israel is detaining in a way that conflicts with international law (unlawful detainment, torture, withllding food, already several prioners have died in Israeli prisons since October 7th, but the correct word is that they were murdered/assassinated by Israel.
International law generally makes exceptions for actions that have military purpose. Israel created a status quo where one of the few things Hamas can do that actually make the lives of Palestinians better is take hostages, so from my understanding it’d be allowed by international law.
Israel was not occupying Gaza, in fact it withdrew its settlements and all army forces in 2005. On October 7th, not a single Israeli soldier was in Gaza.
When the atrocity in question was ordered or encouraged by the leadership. The point the blame passes from the individual to the institution is when the institution gets involved in the atrocity. So if Hamas had said “kill civilians” or “rape women” we’d have to blame Hamas for that, but as long as it’s a decision an individual made on their own only the individual bears responsibility.
so, if, for example, the head of government goes and awards medals to people shooting children you would assume that the government supports that, right?
What’s the standard for this in the U.S.? It reaches only as far up the ladder as anyone can definitively prove. Abu Gharib saw like, what, a lieutenant fired or something. But when it’s “the enemy”, all of a sudden we assume by default the decision came from the highest levels, and it’s carte blanche to wipe out 2.5 million people living in a giant concentration camp, in a supposed attempt to do regime change.
What I’m saying is that Bibi and his cabinet made lots of genocidal claims to fully support intent of genocide, and tery are the ones pushing their army to do this.
It’s because they said that we have to assume it comes from above… Well with Bibi we don’t have to assume, he already told us he’s Hitler.
No no. They’re talking about Hamas in the “comes from above” thing. When it’s the US crimes go only as high up the ladder as provable, but when it’s “the enemy” (aka Hamas) individual crimes are used as excuses to wipe out 2.5 million people, is what dx1 is saying. They’re pointing out the hypocrisy.
Hear me out…it might be time to release the hostages and for Hamas to surrender.
Surrender and what? Go back to living in an open-air concentration camp, only this time with the addition of ethnic cleansing?
Surrender and nothing. Surrender and live in 1/6th of the land you used to have with far fewer resources.
Unfortunately, I think that keeping up resistance against Israel and forcing them to do what they’re doing as loudly as possible is the best option they’ve got.
Surrender and live 10 more years, dying to malnutrition and plague instead of bullets
Yeah exactly.
Gaza is only an “open air prison” because it’s controlled by a jihadist organization fixated on a religious genocidal fantasy and willing to commit funds, resources and civilians’ lives towards it. Its’ crucial to remember that Gaza borders Egypt as well. The Israeli and Egyptian blockade of Gaza is a legal, defensive measure taken as a result of Hamas’ intentions, threats and violence, not the other way around. Israel left Gaza in 2005 withdrawing all civilians and military, and is met with hostility and violence from the territory ever since. Leaving Gaza unchecked while Hamas operates it as a terror-state would only bring about exacerbated violence and death.
Life in the prison looks tough https://nitter.net/imshin/status/1733819052659740965?s=20
Now tell me how many of those people are dependent on international aid to survive, and how many are malnourished. And while you’re at it how many of them need medicine that they can’t get because of the blockade and have to use the tunnels, if they can get it at all.
Edit: And oh I forgot: How many of them lost family members or their homes to Israeli airstrikes.
Bet you’re gonna just ignore all that and still call it an open air concentration camp 🤦
What did Hamas do to help these people with all the humanitarian Qatari money it received? What does Hamas do now with the fuel and humanitarian aid it receives ?
It built tunnels, rockets to massacre and kill in it’s one goal, to completely drive the last of the Jews from the land. It lives underground while people above ground live in hell.
It’s sad what happened and continues to happen to the people of Gaza. I wish they will overthrow the terrible organization that rules them and start using the aid money for good
What are they supposed to do? Gaza is only allowed to buy things Israel allows them to buy, only allowed to sell things Israel allows them to sell (or does it just not allow them to export their products? I’m not sure). No government can function under these conditions. Hence the international aid, that surprise surprise Israel also limits. We can blame Hamas’s domestic policy all we want, but under these conditions they never had a chance. Gaza just doesn’t have the resources to survive without contact with the outside world.
I spent a year living in Israel during the Second Intifada, studying the conflict and talking to everyone I could, Jew, Arab, etc. I do a pretty good impression of a constipated Ariel Sharon giving a speech, “Anaaacchnu tzrichim [labored grunting] bitachon b’Israel v’hakol olam!”
You have a well-informed and factual view of the situation. Must be because you are an Israeli ex-pat and (let me guess) are secular. It’s disheartening to see propaganda-fueled idiots who have zero idea what they are talking about arguing with you–who wants reform in Israel–all because they have a black-and-white view of right and wrong, see Islam as “the underdog” that is therefore allowed to commit atrocities, and had hiphop artists telling them to “free Palestine” since 1995.
Give up the weapons, stop bombing and killing people and Israel might get rid of the fence. Worth a try…
They should’ve just asked the guards nicely and maybe they would’ve opened up the gates of Auschwitz but these darned resistances just didn’t want to stop.
Again, Gaza is no prison. It has a border with Israel and also with Egypt. Before the Oct 7th massacre Gazans were crossing to Israel for work every day.
Here’s how life in “Auschwitz” looked like https://nitter.net/imshin/status/1733819052659740965?s=20
You keep repeating Gaza is not a prison. I agree, it’s a concentration camp.
Okay. Seems like you’re under the delusion that if Israel had an open free border with Gaza, like in the EU, peace would break in the region
They’d probably need to give them equal rights and not be an apartheid state, too, and stop kicking people out of their homes. But once all that happened, the violence would probably be greatly reduced. The same thing happened with the Ira in the UK, their attacks stopped once they negotiated.
so, all Hamas needs to do is surrender and give up all their weapons and Israel will go back to the relationship before Hamas?
the relationship defined by occupation, fences, and a systematic annexation of Palestinian land.
you make the mistake of not knowing history, they tried it for over 45 years with negotiation, the ONLY time Israel backed out of any region was due to military force, so, why should they assume it to be any different this time?
You are right. I’m don’t know the history of this conflict enough to have an informed discussion about it. My comment was more wishful thinking than any founded opinion. It’s just that all alternative scenarios are much more terrible than this one.
I actually do know the history of the region which is why arguing with someone like you who seems to live in a fantasy world where Hamas, the peace seekers (and all round good guys) tried to get Israel out of their (?) land by negotiation.
The constant bombings, missile attacks and three all out invasions of Israel (for genocide) never happened and Hamas and their precursors were just trying logic and reason the whole time 😂
Wtf are you talking about? The straw manning is crazy. They never said Hamas was the good guys in that comment or that they tried to get land through negotiation. They were talking about the relationship with Palestine before Hamas. Hamas was a result of the failures of those negotiations.
If you oppress people and take their land without a peaceful resolution, of course a violent, terrorist group will result. We’ve seen it in other countries, too, from the IRA in the UK to the ANC in South Africa and the BLA in the United States. If Hamas were to disappear an equivalent is just going to appear again without the underlying conditions that caused them to be created being solved, or without full ethnic cleansing, which is obviously the route Israel would prefer.
So, you have an issue with time, ok there is this concept of “before” and the concept of “after”, now before Hamas even existed, Israel was literally straight up occupying Gaza, afterward Israel only blockaded them.
And yes, it is their land, the same way that India isn’t British land, Ukraine isn’t Russian, Brazil isn’t Portuguese, etc., etc., etc…
Now no one said that Hamas was the “good guys”, but the assertion that Israel is, is comical, at best Also, the Genocide thing is a bit far stretched, and requires an interpretation that would make Israel just as, if not more, genocidal.
And yes, if the only way you have ever been able to gain anything was through violence, why wouldn’t you choose violence? because it hurts your feefees that a white person had to die? meanwhile, the not-violent west bank gets to watch as soldiers who bravely kill children are awarded with medals.
so much for “knowing the history of the region”
Lol you gave me a good laugh with this and I lost it when you said ‘the genocide thing is a bit stretched’.
I think most Iranian officials start their morning by saying ‘What a nice day to kill all Jews!’
Hamas was even crazy enough to put ‘kill the Jews’ in their original manifesto.
The difference here is that as hard as you Hamas ball fondlers try to spin it otherwise, if Hamas surrenders and let’s the hostages go, Israel will in turn end the war and the killing stopped. The other choice is that Israel stops fighting in which case the Palestinians and pals will do exactly what they’ve said they want to do - commit genocide.
ok, you have officially gone into the territory of “my enemy is literally worse than Satan”.
also, so what? The AFU put kill the Boer in their manifesto.
And lastly, you show how fucking little you actually know about any of this, or how little you care, because the one thing that sentence was right on is committing genocide, because to the Netanyahu government it was never about the hostages, and they have already declared that this war will continue until they are sure that every last member of Hamas is dead. Now, how do you do that to an insurgency without genocide is anybody’s guess.
So what is your answer to clear, stated intent of genocide?
Dude take a moment and think what you’re supporting. 😞
I think you are conflating between Gaza and the West Bank. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. No occupation, no fences (other than a border) and no annexation of land
Due to the massive amounts of undue power the blockade gives Israel over Gazans’ lives, many organizations (including the UN) consider Gaza still under Israeli occupation.
Gazans used to cross to Israel on a daily basis for work (since October 7th, I don’t see that happening anymore)
What about Egypt ? What is their role in this “open air prison” ?
Speaking as an Egyptian, Egypt is mostly doing it for American aid. That said, the Egyptian government (Arab leaders generally are, but Egypt even more so) is a traitor to the Arab and Muslim people, and an accomplice to Israel’s crime against humanity. Ayone involved in the blockade on Egypt’s end (and Israel’s, but doubly so for Egypt’s) out of their own will should be hanged.
You sound like a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Take your Coptic Christian harassing, LGBTQ-hating, tourist attacking butt out of here. Egypt is doing it because they don’t want Palestinians waging war inside Egypt’s sovereign territory. The Egyptian government is so brutal because the people you support want a freaking Caliphate. Egypt is for Egyptians, not just Arabs and Muslims. Go fly a kite.
I think looking solely at the American aid angle is too narrow of a view. Hamas are Muslim brotherhood, not exactly friends of the regime. Probably hate Hamas more than they hate the Israelis
I mean, some did. With special visas and stuff. That still means they’re occupied.
by UN definition, what Israel is doing in Gaza is still an occupation, the IDF has cut every single route out, even going as far as to patrol a 1km wide strip on the border of Egypt and Gaza for years, why do you think the Gaza-Egypte supplies (like the WMD that is KFC or an old car) are all transported via kilometers long tunnels?
At which point do you believe that Hamas will disarm its arsenal of rockets firing regularly at Israel ? What would need to happen for Hamas to do that you think ?
we could start with not shooting anyone the snipers on the border can see, maybe lift the blockade, stop trying to starve them out (most Gazans don’t even reach 40 due to malnutrition and IDF “grass cutting”), maybe don’t limit them to 4 days of water a week, let them rebuild and operate their own power plant again, stopping IDF supported Pogroms in the west bank (yes the very same the occupied the IDF as Hamas attacked), stopping the illegal settlements, actually allow for a 2-state solution where Israel doesn’t control all the water etc…
The list is long, it won’t happen overnight, but such is the bed that the Israeli government has made.
But don’t worry, they are going with the genocide route, because the Zionists in Israel are mainly not the survivors of the holocaust, but fervent nationalists so far removed from the horrors of the Nazi regime, that they openly mock holocaust survivors, and completely disregard those who got shipped off to gulags by the Russians and/or couldn’t move to Israel before 1953 (because any of them that came after 1953 aren’t real Jews to begin with)
A lot of what you said is just factually incorrect. Putting the west bank aside and focusing on Gaza, there was no humanitarian crisis before October 7 and there are no settlements in Gaza. The “snipers at the border” were not so effective on the day of October 7th when Hamas broke into Israel and massacred women and children. Hamas did not go into settlements in the west bank. It went into regular villages and cities and did what it did.
And that last part about the mocking of Holocaust survivors, not sure where you get that from
The life expectancy in Gaza is over 70 years, according to WHO data. Go spread misinformation elsewhere.
Would’ve worked for the West Bank.
And you truly believe that Israel will stop with destruction, oppression, etc?
Israel withdrew from Gaza long time ago and was not occupying Gaza before Oct 7 when Hamas decided to declare war on it by massacring and kidnapping Israeli civilians.
Ah yes, the same talking point repeated over and over again. Next time try to use your brain instead of repeating the same line:
Or are you trying to convince me that Gaza is a paradise on earth? Why do you think those tunnels exists at the first place? Have you heard of freedom of movement? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement. How would you feel if you are not allowed to leave 41sq. km, don’t have a single functioning airport, you can’t even use the territorial waters, because they are also controlled by Israel, and your whole economy is heavily restricted. But yes, continue repeating yourself that Israel is a spotless angel who don’t have anything to do with the events from the 7th of October.
Don’t forget filled with the constant sound of drones to the point people can’t sleep or study, a majority of their water isn’t drinkable, they don’t control their own trash, and they restricted the amount of calories into their to be the bare minimum at one point.
Not a paradise but not too bad of a prison either https://nitter.net/imshin/status/1733819052659740965?s=20
The tunnels are built to provide strategic advantage over Israeli military superiority. Also to smuggle equipment for rockets which Hamas has plenty of and uses them regularly. Ordinary Gazans do not get to use the tunnels to hide and stay alive. They are needed as human shields instead.
Israel is far from being a spotless angel. Nothing in life is black and white like that. But Hamas started this one. And Israel cannot live with an organization that kidnaps, rapes and beheads people on its border
Yes, then why don’t you go and live there for half a year to see how much you are going to like it. These tunnels were first built to smuggle normal goods in and out of Gaza, and they were the reaction of the restrictions imposed by Israel of their freedom of movement.
For this conflict to really end both sides need to do some concessions and most importantly Israel should grant some basic human rights and freedom and ensure that perpetrators of the new order would be equally persecuted by law enforcement. What I see right now is that Israel is building even more checkpoints in the West bank, approving the building of new neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem and granting impunity to violent settlers. arresting Palestinians and keeping them in prisons without effective sentence and even when they are put into court, they are tried in a military court and not civil. Relatives of Palestinian prisoners can’t even visit them and there are a lot of reports of prisoner officers exerting physical and psychological harassment of those prisoners.
So tell me honestly, if you were on the other side of the barricade, how would you feel? Would you tolerate being treated like cattle and still be happy?
And honestly speaking I don’t see any political will in Israel to change the current status quo? They don’t want to make any concessions or start treating those people decently. How many times in interviews did Israeli politicians show any will for a two-states solution? And mind you the overwhelming opinion of the international community is that the only viable solution leading to a long lasting peace is a two state solution base on equal treatment of people and mutual respect. And Netanyahu’s reply is what exactly? Arming settlers, building even more checkpoints to restrict their freedom of movement in the West bank, arresting even more Palestinians and talking of another military occupation of Gaza and building of another buffer zone from inside Gaza.
So explain to me how is this fair and do you think it would improve the prospects of long lasting peace in the region? It is almost like Likud and the far right parties are using the current conflict for even more polarising of the Israeli society and land grab.
I agree with your analysis of Israel. I don’t see much hope for change there, unfortunately and looks like this sentiment will only grow stronger from now on. However the discussion was around Hamas specifically. They don’t want to live in peace alongside Israel. They completely deny the concept of Israel and will not stop until the last Jew is driven out. Can’t justify that either
You can’t kill an idea, you can replace it with a better alternative, and Hamas is an idea, like an ideological movement that is summarising the general discontent of Palestinian population with the current status quo. Every human being wants to live in peace and prosperity. Politics and religion is usually dividing people.
My point is that this war even if it manages to kill a big chunk of the military wing of Hamas and destroy their weapons, won’t kill the idea and will do quite the opposite by strengthening the resolve of people to continue opposing Israel and support Hamas.
Funnily enough Hamas needs Likud and the other far right factions in the Israelian government to flourish and vice versa. They have formed a symbiotic relationship even though officially they are mortal enemies. But if Israel and Palestine manage to find a recipe for a long standing peace based on equal terms, then Likud and the other far right factions and the terrorist organisations in Palestine will lose a big chunk of their support.
Sadly, I don’t see this happening anytime soon as both parts are already too invested in the current bloodshed. And considering that Israel is a “democratic” country with a far superior military power one is logically expecting that they should be the initiator of a peace process that will try to mend the wounds from the current war. What I am currently seeing is zero interest from Israel to do something like this.
Unfortunately everything you said about israel is true, as an (expat) Israeli I see the current conflict only drives us further from any solution and more bloodshed in the future is almost certain.
Regarding Hamas, it’s a fundamentalist jihadistic group that will not stop until the complete annihilation of all the Jews, with that I’m certain as they are saying exactly that. However they can be overthrown, that is what this war is about. Who will replace them ? No idea. Might be even worse…
There are many good people on both ends that want to live in peace. Unfortunately the leadership is bad, driven by extremists and the politics are horrible (at least on Israel’s side, don’t know much about PA)
It might be time for Israel to agree with the hostage exchange Hamas put forward a bunch of times and stop genociding the civilian population of Gaza.
Which one ?
The one they put forward less than a week after the attack. Releasing hostages in exchange for concessions from Israel has been the plan all along.
Each side blames the other on why the agreement blew up. Honestly you can choose to believe any side but we won’t know.
1000 convicted terrorists per hostage. Now you see why Israel didn’t agree to it?
“convicted terrorist” doesn’t mean shit when the “convicted terrorists” are literal children.
Children means anyone up to age 19. The US has plenty examples of “children” in that age group committing school shootings. It just happens that in the PA, they’re taught to “go stab a jew” in schools instead.
ah, yes, America, the shining example of how to respect human rights.
In Israel, children are abducted for something as small as throwing a rock at a hmmwv and detained without trial for decades. but tell me more about how israel is actually right.
Those same children are taught in school that Jews should be hated and killed. Tell me how the PA is right?
ah yes, the old “palestinians want to kill all the jews” line, just so killing all the palestinians can be justified. do you have any sources for your claims that doesn’t come directly from the propaganda machine that is the zionist state?
It blows my mind we’re in a time and place where you get downvoted for wanting terrorism to end.
Also, even if wanting Hamas to surrender is just “wanting terrorism to end”, Hamas surrendering would be the biggest catastrophe to befall the Palestinian people since the Nakba. Israel will, at the very least, make Gaza like the West Bank, likely worse. They’ve already stated they want security control over Gaza, and we all know what that means.
Hamas doesn’t give two shits about the Palestinians under their control. How does being governed by a country that cares for human life worse than being ruled with fear by a terrorist organization that values killing Jews more than your own life?
Look at the West Bank; you’ll find your answer. Then remember that if Hamas surrenders, that’s Gaza’s best-case scenario.
And if Israel surrendered, every single person would be slaughtered.
israel doesn’t care for human life though.
That’s complete bullshit. Israel’s intense care for the lives of their citizens is how we ended up here. In fact if the iron dome wasn’t developed, we’d have gotten to this point even sooner, because protecting Israeli citizens (yes, that includes the Arab citizens as well) is Israel’s #1 priority.
their blatant disregard for human life and human rights begs to differ. hell, there are reports that top brass of the israeli government knew about the attack on october 7 beforehand and allowed it to happen, so they could use it as justification for bombing the shit out of Gaza.
how about wanting State Terrorism to end?
do you know how many people Israel abducts? https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention
Kinda weird that Hamas only wanted prisoners back who were convicted of violent crimes then?
I’m happy we’re in a time and place where you get downvoted for wanting Gazans to go back to the pre-war status quo without even freeing their people behind Israeli bars, let alone surrender to Israel and get the West Bank treatment.
You can be both against terrorism and against imperialism.
October 7th wasn’t terrorism. It was military action against a foreign occupier.
You’re sick in the fucking head
You could’ve asked why first. I am not, BTW, defending atrocities committed during October 7th. These are different things.
Your comments say otherwise. Saying two contradictory things doesn’t suddenly make you right.
Bruh.
October 7th = legitimate military action against a foreign oppressor.
Actions of a fraction of individual soldiers on October 7th = atrocities punishable by international law.
That’s the distinction, and it’ll remain until there’s evidence Hamas ordered or encouraged atrocities against civilians.
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I was gonna explain a lot of things, but after seeing your second sentence yeah that’s pointless. I’ll just mention that the UN already condemned Israel for war crimes in Gaza. Israel’s response is neither legal nor required for anything except to keep their brutal occupation going.
At this point you’re nothing better than a terrorist shill. I’ve been seeing your comments for the last week here. You’ve said nothing but misinformation the entire time.
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Uh… The blockade is an act of war. Israel has been doing that since 2005 (and has been occupying Gaza and the West Bank since 1967), proving they’re unable to safely coexist in the region. History extends beyond October 7th.
But what about all the sweet leverage Hamas gets by keeping the hostages!?! Surely that’s more important than the Palestinians!
🤮
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Yeah. It isn’t that hard. Fuck Hamas
to be fair, the west bank doesn’t have Hamas, and the entire reason Hamas was so successful is that the army had to go guard the Pogrom against the Arabs in the west bank, so how’s that non-Hamas stuff working out?
I mean, fuck Israel too
The only people protecting Gazans now are Hamas in the absence of the secritiy council and whatever power it has. Ironic, sad, but true.
October 7th was wrong, but what would be even more wrong now is to abandon all those Gazans and stop fighting all those Israeli tanks shelling everyone’s home.
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Hmmm i don’t support Hamas.
If you actually gave two shits about the Palestinians you’d be calling for Hamas to surrender, release the hostages so this war can end.
Israel won’t abandon their hostages which is obviously why Hamas took them to force this war.
No point arguing with a propagandist like yourself though…have you noticed that public opinion is shifting against Hamas? Better get even more hysterical mate! 😂
Israel doesn’t care about their citizens, they’re carpet bombing Gaza and flooding tunnels they know the hostages are in. They had the option to just do a hostage exchange since day one. This is some mixture of annexation and Netanyahu trying to hold on to power.
In what universe do you live? Hamas pulled out of the continuing the hostage exchange. Israel wanted women returned but Hamas wouldn’t agree…let’s be honest it’s because all the rape and torture would make their propaganda war tricky
Hamas’s cited reason was that Israel was demanding female soldiers, while the terms of the “pause” dictated the exchange of civilians. It seemed like Israel simply wanted an excuse to continue bombing.
Let’s be honest about this having no substantiation at present and being based on Israeli and U.S. State Dept propaganda. Honestly it’s disgusting how quickly people will resort to insinuations like this.
I know! All those raped (verified by Hamas body cam footage) on Oct 7 and people start to think Hamas are going to keep raping the hostages when they get them back to gaza. What a crazy leap right?!
At what point will you rejoin reality bud?
Is it verified by that? Can you provide the footage? Pretty sure this is incorrect.
Hamas cares even less for the lives of Gaza civilians. They cowardly hide in their tunnels, take humanitarian supplies by force from the population and shoot at Gazans when they try to escape from their human shield purpose.
All of these crimes have been documented and you can find them online. Hamas is a dictatorship jihadistic organization who controls the population by fear
What about Gazans? Do you believe they deserve to have 20 Oct 7th done to them every single night?
No, they don’t deserve it. If you were Israel, and 1200 of your people would have been murdered, raped and 400 were taken hostages, what would you do differently?
What would you do “differently” since those Gazans don’t deserve to die in a crowded hospital after a failing amputation attempt because there are no meds and Israel is shelling outside?
Btw I just want to say that 17 thousand of my “people” have already been killed by Israel since I’m Palestinian.
As a Palestinian, you don’t have any criticism of Hamas ? Oct 7th was just an “act of resistance” according to your view?
Do you agree with Hamas ? Why one state solution and not two states?
Says you under a headline that read s “Gazan society On brick of full blow collapse”.
It’s collapsing because of Israeli indiscriminate bombing yet you make no demands on the genocidal freaks pulling the trigger.
Shame on you
Hamas already did release the hostages, the ones the IDF haven’t killed in airstrikes at least
Airstrikes don’t affect underground tunnels where Hamas hides with all the humanitarian supplies and fuel along with the precious hostages while the less privileged Gazans suffer above
damn, you really believe that, don’t you?like the massive supply bunkers below the hospital?, the hospital that they had laid siege to for days before storming it, meaning that Hamas should have not been able to get anything out, and the greatest horror was a few guns, a diaper, and a bomb shelter that Israel put in when they built the building, full of jack shit.
Every Palestinian in Gaza knows they are using hospitals, mosques, schools to conduct their military operation from there. Have you seen them wearing uniforms in their videos?
This is no secret, it’s playbook assymetric warfare tactic I honestly don’t understand the denial about it. Do you expect them to have some military base with a helicopter landing so Israel can bomb it in a second?
Damn, imagine wounded combatants being treated at hospitals, of course you happen to forget that Hamas doesn’t even have a uniform, nor that it’s still a war crime to attack hospitals.
The justification of Israel to bomb hospitals always shows the building its self full of tunnels and storing red exploding barrels. because anything less than that is a war crime…
the only person in denial about anything here is you and the Geneva convention.
They most definitely have uniforms, they just don’t use them when fighting Israel as they are embedded inside civilians. And they most definitely hide and attack from schools, mosques and hospitals.
There are no hostages in Ba Sing Se.
Got it.
It’s sad seeing you make such a reference because clearly you didn’t even understand anything from that show.
Correction: Some individual actions taken on October 7th (with no evidence they were Hamas policy) were wrong. October 7th as a whole was resistance against a foreign occupier, which is allowed under international law.
Wow this is a very delusional take. Hamas didn’t rampage into the “Settlements” of land that has been taken, they went deep into Israel. And I don’t think international law allows you to kill or capture civilians or children and hold them for ransom.
They didn’t hold them for ransom. They demanded the release of Palestinian prisoners in Israel, which Israel is detaining in a way that conflicts with international law (unlawful detainment, torture, withllding food, already several prioners have died in Israeli prisons since October 7th, but the correct word is that they were murdered/assassinated by Israel.
International law generally makes exceptions for actions that have military purpose. Israel created a status quo where one of the few things Hamas can do that actually make the lives of Palestinians better is take hostages, so from my understanding it’d be allowed by international law.
Your understanding of international law is absolutely frightening. Go ask ChatGPT that question before you say it out loud again.
Israel was not occupying Gaza, in fact it withdrew its settlements and all army forces in 2005. On October 7th, not a single Israeli soldier was in Gaza.
Thanks. That’s a good explanation of it.
But where does one draw the line between “Individual action” and “battalion action”?
When the atrocity in question was ordered or encouraged by the leadership. The point the blame passes from the individual to the institution is when the institution gets involved in the atrocity. So if Hamas had said “kill civilians” or “rape women” we’d have to blame Hamas for that, but as long as it’s a decision an individual made on their own only the individual bears responsibility.
so, if, for example, the head of government goes and awards medals to people shooting children you would assume that the government supports that, right?
Uh… Yes? Is that going on in Hamas?
It’s funny because literally the IDF gets pizza coupons for killing Palestinians. That’s how trivial Palestinian life is to the IDF.
What’s the standard for this in the U.S.? It reaches only as far up the ladder as anyone can definitively prove. Abu Gharib saw like, what, a lieutenant fired or something. But when it’s “the enemy”, all of a sudden we assume by default the decision came from the highest levels, and it’s carte blanche to wipe out 2.5 million people living in a giant concentration camp, in a supposed attempt to do regime change.
I mean, let’s be honest, this looks like a serious genocide attempt, and Bibi has been saying genocidal things every few days.
The “enemy” in their comment is Hamas. You’re agreeing with them.
Hmmm. Are you replying to the right comment?
What I’m saying is that Bibi and his cabinet made lots of genocidal claims to fully support intent of genocide, and tery are the ones pushing their army to do this.
It’s because they said that we have to assume it comes from above… Well with Bibi we don’t have to assume, he already told us he’s Hitler.
No no. They’re talking about Hamas in the “comes from above” thing. When it’s the US crimes go only as high up the ladder as provable, but when it’s “the enemy” (aka Hamas) individual crimes are used as excuses to wipe out 2.5 million people, is what dx1 is saying. They’re pointing out the hypocrisy.