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Oh no! Time to retroactively pretend the thing I liked was always bad.
Right? Like you can still enjoy their shit but not them personally. You can be a talented shit waffle
I don’t understand the obsession with moralizing people. Artists don’t have to be role models.
It’s a side effect of the commercialization of art.
Artists that don’t offend anyone sell better and selling as much as possible has become all that matters to all the people who enable artists to continue making art and experience more tangible and real forms of artistic success
Eventually everyone internalized it all so much that it’s a common misconception that every artist has a duty to be as commercial as possible and as such to be a role model. But only in ways that doesn’t offend anyone who’s in the target demographics.
It sucks big floppy donkey dick, but that’s how the boring dystopia that is the real world works 😮💨
Yay capitalism! We did it!
That’s how you end up with a Hollywood full of sex pests
Indeed. You pay them for their work, not for what they do with their life.
Yeah, that’s completely true. It’s up to each person to decide what their standards are and where they draw the line. Like Roman Polanski anally raping a 13 year old and using his money and fame to leave the country and avoid the prison time may be across one person’s line while another person says, “Eh, what can you do? It was almost 50 years ago.” Also true, but that piece of shit is still alive and making money–from people who like his work at least enough to keep consuming it.
Yeah you’re on the ball. You got to draw lines somewhere. I’m not going to listen to a band whose bit is to run over baby rabbits with a lawn mower on stage. If you’re just a general fuck stick, though I’m more willing to accept that to a degree
The problem is enjoying their shit gives them money and attention. Shit people don’t deserve either.
Just listen on Spotify - they get fuck all from that lmao
Oh boy, time to point out the show that was made by a creeper had warning signs all along, but was shutdown when I previously criticized the show.
BTW, the people who wrote Transformers 4 should be investigated.
Don’t really need an investigation to know that Michael Bay is a sex pest, I’m pretty sure that one’s actually all the way out there.
I haven’t exactly found Bay to be all that interesting of a person to follow closely, but he wasn’t the sole creative person on that movie.
He was the driving force of the entire franchise. The whole thing was his creation. His Creative Vision. Chose the writers chose the actors chose everything, as well as obviously directing it. If there’s a scene in that film it’s cuz he wants it there have no doubts about that.
He’s also a known sex past as I said. Kind of odd that you leaped to his defense…
That’s not what “leaping to his defense” looks like. There’s a whole chain of people in the decision to have that subplot line. They all should be scrutinized.
Also, downvotes don’t mean anything here.
Ah, the first one is Cosby and not Alf.
or arguably more annoying - time to pretend me not liking that person’s work was always justified!
as if people weren’t allowed to dislike things unless it was somehow morally justified
I think there’s a difference between enjoying the media of a problematic person vs continuing to financially support said person and give their media continued relevance, thereby continuing to give them a platform with which to spew bigotry and hate.
(This comment is about she who shall not be named)
I think we’d be hard pressed to find media to enjoy if we needed to make sure we agree on everything with the author…
#however
that cunt is a special case because, it’s not just a case of an author having shit views in their personal life or voting a certain way quietly.
she’s an activist, whose sole purpose in life has become making life worse for a certain group of people. incredibly vile and full of hate, and very vocal about it. using her platform consistently in the worst possible way.
also she’s a bad writer.
There’s a world of nuance between having to agree on everything and platforming loud bigots
I’m not known for being concise: part I
The legacy JK would have enjoyed if she just kept her fucking mouth shut and hired someone to clean the damn mold in her house.
all bigotry requires some obstruction of mental faculties but I’ve never seen anything like transphobia. true mental illness, people seem to be especially losing their mind over this particular kind of hate for some reason.
people with otherwise great privilege, wealth and power just forget about living their lives and dedicate immense energy if not their entire existence to this. eventually paranoid schizophrenia sets in and they find themselves transvestigating people. wild drug.
she’s an activist, whose sole purpose in life has become making life worse for a certain group of people. incredibly vile and full of hate, and very vocal about it. using her platform consistently in the worst possible way.
She’s exactly what you’d expect from a 2nd wave radfem. It’s why so many of her ideological peers are also 2nd wave radfems. I’d bet if asked she’d tell you about how big an influence someone like Mary Daly was on her views on sex and feminism - Mary Daly was a 2nd wave radfem who likened trans people to Frankenstein’s monster and whose teaching career ended because of Title IX complaints related to her refusing to teach male students.
also she’s a bad writer.
She’s decent at storytelling but painfully awful at world building and thinking through how existing threads from previous stories might interact with the one she wants to tell this time. Her weaknesses wouldn’t shine through as much if she were writing individual, disconnected stories instead of multi-part series in a shared universe.
eh, there’s more to her writing that’s bad. she has a lot of plot points that go nowehere, seems to set a lot of stuff up with no payoff.
also she uses adverbs a lot. that “he asked calmly” meme is an example. it’s generally not advised in writing to rely on them too much, and she uses like double the amount of adverbs a good writer would use.
and of course her attempts at tying loose ends always makes them worse.
and she pretty vile. you can see it in her descriptions.
oh and she’s awful at naming things and people.
I think we’d be hard pressed to find media to enjoy if we needed to make sure we agree on everything with the author…
You should look up Bloodywood.
In July of the same year, Bloodywood partnered with online counselling site HopeTherapy and released the song “Jee Veerey”, dedicated to fighting depression and mental illness.[14][15] On 15 January 2019, the band released “Endurant”, a song dealing with the topic of bullying.[4]
Along with the messages included in their songs, the band aims to support various social/charity causes. With the release of the video for their song “Jee Veerey”, they gave away pre-paid online counselling sessions.
Upon returning to India from their 2019 European tour, Bloodywood donated the earnings to Posh Foundation, a local NGO that cares for homeless animals, for the purchase of a new ambulance.[22]
I think we’d be hard pressed to find media to enjoy if we needed to make sure we agree on everything with the author…
Just wanted to add that I don’t even agree on everything with MYSELF.
Don’t give more money to the millionaire mold-brain witch, pirate her shit 🏴☠️
So you’re saying that just to be safe we need to pirate everything? Got it.
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She already have the fame, my enjoyment of her work by pirating will literally do nothing to her.
I think Kevin Spacey may be one of the best (most skilled) actors of his generation, and among the best across several generations. A true peer of Dustin Hoffman.
I was shocked by the allegations, and crushed when it became evident (to me) that it wasn’t a smear campaign.
In a way it’s crazy that I can be so emotionally engaged with someone I’ve never met, likely never will, and who has no idea I exist. OTOH, it’s not surprising when people we respect, or even idolize, turn out to be not only merely human, but morally flawed in particularly inexcusable ways.
I still feel sad and betrayed by Spacey, and it’ll forever taint my ability to enjoy his incredible performances.
“Goddammit, he was so good at playing a creep! Why did he have to turn out to be a real creep?”
Yeah, that’s how I felt about Jonathan Majors as Kang. “He’s great! Got this fun, wild, sensitive vibe, but there’s this dark and menacing core lurking beneath.” uhuh.
If you had paid any attention to gossip in the 2000s, you’d have heard about Spacey being a creep. It was an open secret.
A lot of us avoid celebrity gossip, because 99% of it is utter drivel.
Yeah, I didn’t, and don’t, pay attention to celebrity gossip. In retrospect, when it was first news and it was being covered everywhere, yeah, it seems that it was pretty well known in industry.
I just watch the movies; I don’t care about the actor’s personal lives.
Yeah man, that one hurt for sure…
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Fuck that “giving off signals” bullshit. That’s just tribalism and peer pressure. No one should ever feel afraid to consume media they enjoy just because of fucking “signals”, and we shouldn’t be okay with anyone making such ridiculous shallow judgements about people.
Cliquey high school bullshit.
I’d make a Woody Allen joke but it just feels too soon… yi.
Just…too soon, and too close to home, you know? 😉
I see what you did there
We have all sinned, every one of us. Even if we didn’t realize it at the time, we see our actions years later and are disgusted with ourselves.
The time for purity tests are over, it’s time to admit that deep down the human experience is being a giant piece of shit, but it is also trying to cleanse yourself of such burdensome humanity and grow into something far kinder, far smarter, far more empathetic, far more patient, and above all, far more wonderful than a human being.
I mean there’s sinned, and there’s raped and trafficked people. So it really depends on what the person did and on if you want to support that or not. I don’t think refusing to watch works from pedophiles or abusers is a bad thing. I refuse to watch Polanski for what he did, I don’t care if his latest movie is good, I won’t watch it. But I can watch Guillermo del Toro movies and not feel guilty, despite the fact that he signed a petition to pardon Polanski, but what I can do is not put people in Hollywood on a pedestal so high that it hurts me when I have to remove them from it.
They’re people in the business of entertaining people, nothing more, nothing less.
The time for purity tests was never.
it’s time to admit that deep down the human experience is being a giant piece of shit
Well, I’m tempted to say “speak for yourself there, buddy”. I’d agree if you said that a lot of people are like that, but you seem to imply that goes for basically everyone?
Look everyone, he without sin!
So the two options are being “without sin” and “being a giant piece of shit”? There is no in between?
Varrying degrees of shittyness sure, but it is human to cause pain and suffering to those around you. Being aware of that is the first step to lessening it’s effect.
Of course! Why, then, implying that I’m claiming to be “without sin” for saying I’m not “a giant piece of shit,” if there’s lots of degrees in between?
If we make the mistake of thinking ourselves more pure, more righteous, or less vile than the other man, we run the risk of feeding our ego.
We must all run with the knowledge that we as individuals are less important than a blade of grass.
Not drag. Drag isn’t a human.
Otherkin rights!!!
Damn right!
Reject humanity! Return to fae!
The copium in some of these comments… Keep giving your money to terrible people so they feel rewarded for their acts and can continue to abuse others. I’m sure that will work out for the best.
I agree, there is a difference between separating the art from the artist and straight up sticking your head in the sand so you can feel good about yourself.
Harry Potter fans tripping over themselves to give Joanne more money while saying “well, she has some bad opinions, BUT…”
Fantastic example.
And where to find it
That’s why I pirate all media I engage in. That way I never support horrible people.
Or you could do that by default while very selectively supporting specific artists. That way you can both stay within your means and exercise moral discretion over who you support.
But what if the artist I choose to support turns out to be a creep later on? Do I keep the bought media or throw it out?
You can’t take back what’s already been given, so you just learn and move on. Whether to keep their art or throw it out is your choice, just don’t support them in the future.
For example, I own a painting by Salvador Dali. Salvador Dali - if you don’t know - is a fascist. I inherited the painting, and even the previous owner likely purchased the painting after Salvador Dali was dead. My owning the painting does not support Salvador Dali in any way, and the painting has nothing to do with his fascist views. Most people would not recognize that it is a Salvador Dali painting and even fewer would know about his political leanings. It doesn’t bother me to hang the painting on my wall, and in the right context and company it can even make a good conversation piece.
Yeah, it’s better to just not support anything, good or bad.
Yes. Widespread nihilism certainly will not have any negative consequences
Lol that is NOT why you pirate everything
You must be psychic.
One of these days, you will make an offhand comment that gets taken out of context, and the purity testing bastards you’re trying to impress will turn on you faster than you can imagine.
Don’t try to impress face eating leapords and then get surprised when your face is eaten.
90% of my comments are already taken out of context. I live by the sword, I’ll die by it, but I’ll never say something I don’t mean just to appease some fair weather crowd of internet trolls. If I die on a hill, believe it’s a hill I’ve chosen for myself.
Every good person is actually a bad person trying to atone for something horrible they did.
Not sure this is true … But mainly due to nuance.
I think everyone who has reached adulthood has done bad things worthy of atonement (not because minors can’t be bad, just to set a line), regardless of whether that’s because they’re a bad person or because they made poor decisions. I think of myself as a good person - because I try to better the lives of those around me - but I can think of plenty of bad things I’ve done (primarily out of ignorance or foolishness - I don’t think I’ve ever acted with the intent of hurting someone).
I’m not trying to atone for those things; once I realized they were bad things, I did my best to fix them and once I did everything I could, I moved on (and hoped the other participants did as well). In some cases, continuing to try to atone for bad acts would have exacerbated the consequences if the other party just wanted to move on.
My mom, who was a big fan of aphorisms, used to say “if you mess up, apologize if you should, fix it if you can, and move on.” I try to live by this.
So, to reiterate the nuance: I try to fix bad things I’ve done if I can; I try to learn from them so I don’t do them again; but I don’t live my life trying to atone for them.
I do like the sentiment behind your post, in case you think us philosophically opposed.
Fuck me, who told you my secret?
Very few people can reasonably be called “good” or “bad”. Most people are somewhere in between.
I think the only actor I absolutely can’t stand because of RL actions is Mark Wahlberg.
Dude committed multiple hate crime assaults before he was famous. Then he tried to brush them off as water under the bridge when they surfaced, without even giving reparations to the guy he partially blinded.
And then he repeatedly plays the “misunderstood heart of gold tough guy” in all his movies.
Just can’t look past it.
No, say it ain’t so, not fawking Marky Mark!!
Feel it, feel it.
My personal rule, in broadest terms is that if I cancel someone, they are released upon death.
What warrants cancelling is pretty wishy washy, and I’m sure I’m hypocritical at times. But generally speaking, if the person is dead, I feel free to enjoy their body of work.
If the person is ruined, or in jail, it’s a grey area.
And if the person is continuing to work, with little to no repercussions. They’re banned.
Depending on the media and its importance to me, at a minimum I just ensure the problematic creator is financially dead to me.
Often the media will be ruined by the reveal of the creators nature, I’ll see subtext in it I didn’t see before. So that fixes itself.
But if I enjoy the media, I’ll continue to enjoy the media privately, in my own mind, from my own hard drive, in my own art. I’ll keep online engagement to a minimum (don’t want the creator getting any benefits from analytic trends) and I’ll make sure the creator doesn’t directly see a cent from me.
Basically, if I gave them money before I “cancelled” them, I’m going to get that money back in a round about way, they don’t deserve it 🏴☠️
People always say, “only the good die young.” But that made me think. What if long-lived people are just more likely to do bad stuff over the course of their lives? Because everyone does good and bad stuff.
IMHO whether or not a person will ever be a domestic abuser or rapist is pretty much determined by the time they reach adulthood. It’s not like a good man suddenly decides to start beating his wife or raping teenagers.
I’d be interested to see any sociological evidence supporting that theory if there is any.
Xi can point out that psychologists have looked at mental health trends in communities with slaughterhouses. When a new slaughterhouse opens and people start working there, depression, alcoholism, addiction, sleep problems, violent crime, and domestic abuse go up. Make a man do violence all day for a living, and he starts to think violence is a valid way to solve problems.
I bet if you give the average person insane amounts of wealth and power, most of em would start doing some heinous shit.
Alright I’ll take that bet! I’m an average person, now we just need to find someone who’ll give me insane amounts of wealth and power… for science.
That you know of. That seems like a pretty broad brush to be painting with. It may be generally true but I’d be extremely surprised if there were no exceptions.
The only counter I have to that is how sensitive our brains are to chemical, mental, and physical trauma.
Drugs, injury, and environmental stress cause easily observable behavior changes, but also changes on the brain measurable in medical imaging. And there’s a lot of acknowledgement that these changes can occur in childhood and persist.
I don’t think anyone chooses to be cruel, I think it’s forced on them in ways they can’t do anything about, and as a society we owe it to them to do better and help them.
Exactly, imagine separate the book from the writer? Or the software from the developer?
Or painter from the painting(that one is OK actually) Like whaat, who does that?! Message VS messanger ? Pff mumbo jumboLol one of the last things I did on Reddit was get banned for mentioning “death of the author”
I was banned on Lemmy for suggesting that a Japanese beauty contest should be run with Japanese contestants. Instead of Europeans. I was banned for racism. One lemming was even persuading me it’s actually impossible to tell who is Japanese and who is East European.
This reminds me, I should listen to some hardcore rap while my SO is out.
right on point. i wonder why people keep believing that any work they enjoy/like/happily consume is made by a good person
Parasocial relationships go brrr
though it’s still strange because not all of our friends are perfect either. We’re all people and we all fuck up, some more than others of course, but let’s not forget being famous makes you the perfect target for false allegations & sensitisation of your actions that’ll spread like wide fire because patience or fact checking doesn’t get clicks
I was gonna say the same thing elsewhere in this post, it’s even worse now that social media has made everybody’s lives so much more public
Is that a belief you’ve seen expressed though? Because I have a theory that Social Justice Warriors, and Snooty Moralists in general are somewhat extinct, and more than likely never existed at all.
They’re the imagined enemy conjured by the right wing to make everyone have a feeling of having been judged, without any actual judges or judgements having been expressed.
A construct made of whole clothe , with no actual person present underneath, just propaganda pages and a feeling of having been wronged.
oh, they exist. but unfortunately they fail to see that the problem is not that the star rhey looked up to is acually a bad person (and therefor their work invalid) but that the very ideal of super-human like stars is the very mechanism that make those people get away with their behavior in the first place.
things wouldn’t be half as bad if sexual misconduct of a beloved actor was tried as soon as it happened - and not swept under the carpet for some decades while the behavior continued to happen
Xi is a social justice warrior and xi knows that heroes are bad and a good community values ideas over people. Xi saw V For Vendetta.
The only place I’ve ever seen this be true personally is sports fans. Sports fans love to talk about how they love athletes and how they’re good guys. You see it constantly. Usually it’s based upon PR stunts. Like there was a big one with current Browns quarterback to Deshaun Watson. Back when he was with the Houston Texans there was this big PR thing where he gave his paycheck to a lunch lady or something. There was a Reddit Thread about how awesome he was and what a good guy he was. Few years later there are like 40 women who are accusing him of rape and or sexual assault.
Sports fans get very invested in their teams Heroes and they think they know them. It’s a danger we all face I’m guilty of it sometimes too I’m sure, but it’s just real important to know that we don’t know these people. It’s true of all celebrities.
I have a theory that Social Justice Warriors, and Snooty Moralists in general are somewhat extinct, and more than likely never existed at all.
You new here?
Because I have a theory that Social Justice Warriors, and Snooty Moralists in general are somewhat extinct, and more than likely never existed at all.
The loudest, unironic SJWs I know are all performative. The most productive activists/volunteers I know don’t make much noise on social media. The performers love saying “separating the art from the artist” type shit. One got really pissed off at me when I pushed him to drop WoW over the suicide and censoring of that tournament winner when he agreed that it was wrong of Blizzard to have done those thing.
The SJW types are absolutely over represented by the anti-Woke crowd. Ragebait all the way down.
Xi is a social justice warrior. Xi is also a dragon rider who uses spells and magic weapons in battle with the forces of evil. Xi would forgive someone who was closed minded enough to think xi doesn’t exist.
There are issues when the artist puts their problematic views into the media, but people were previously not paying attention. Harry Potter is a good example. Most people didn’t really read too much into a children book series, but when JK started talking politics, people started looking more into the subtext of her books and realized all the libertarian politics in them. I personally bailed around book 4 or so because they were annoying me and now I understand why.
people started looking more into the subtext of her books and realized all the libertarian politics in them.
False pattern recognition go brrrr
You should ALWAYS assume “after we learned this thing about this person, we went back and found loads of evidence about it hidden in their work” is bullshit.
I’ll admit I never finished the books because I thought they were bad. I thought it was annoying that Harry never paid rent while living at the Weasleys. Never bothered to offer to help with the car repairs for the car he helped total. I thought Voldemort was a boring villain and was genuinely surprised when he returned in the second and third books. I found it really annoying when Harry kept loosing positive father figures.
I found it surprising when the Hermione/House Elves storyline never went anywhere. That the racial and classism issues never really challenged outside of “the right ones” being uplifted.
Here’s the pattern. JK likes her status quo. Another pattern, she’s also a bad and boring writer. There’s a whole subgenre of fictions that’s basically “Harry Potter, but fixed”.
This is a stupid as someone who’s never liked meat explaining how easy it is to go vegan.
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Xi liked Harry Potter, but even xi can see the slavery defence was weird. Xi always wondered why the good guys never tried fixing the socioeconomic problems that made the goblins and giants support Voldemort.
Xi should get off lemmy and go back to running China. Great job on the renewables btw, keep it up. Maybe less organ harvesting pls
Drag thinks claiming every xi is the same person is racist. It shows a lack of willingness to relate to other cultures. Xi is a perfectly ordinary first name in China and it’s a neopronoun in English. Drag understands you were making a joke, but drag didn’t think it was a funny one. Drag’s already been attacked for drag’s pronouns and decided to switch to one pronoun instead of two because of it.
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Drag is confused. What symptoms of mental illness have you noticed in drag?
Moral piracy
